# Tool Talk >  drone takedown tools: beam guns and eagles

## Jon

Ever been outside on your private property, looked up, and saw a drone flying over your head and recording you? These drone flights are illegal, but my personal experience has been that quoting FAA guidelines to an overhead drone has no effect.

The common response here is "shotgun", and there are plenty of stories and videos on the net documenting that exact interaction. Though tempting, it's often not feasible to discharge a shotgun in such a situation.

Fortunately, there are some newer countermeasures. What's fascinating about them is that the two leading technologies for drone takedown could not be more different!

One is a a directed energy weapon fired at the drone. I would be extremely skeptical of this video were the manufacturer not Battelle, the world's largest nonprofit research and development group (more). Here's a drone takedown video of their DroneDefender beam gun jamming system:




The other method involves trained birds of prey, and it's currently being used by the Dutch National Police. Here's a video from Guard from Above, a Dutch company training birds of prey for drone takedown:

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## PJs

Very Interesting Jon! Battelle, now there is some deep pockets of wizardry. Helped develop a unique cryo-chiller back in the day for some of their biolabs. 

This whole idea of drones has taken some ominous directions and now everyone and there brother can buy a decent one for <$1k. Personally I kind of like the idea of a shotgun but it has it's limits as you say but there is a finality to it. The idea of this gun is actually pretty simple imho. Most kids nowadays have the wherewithal to put something like this together...but they are the ones flying them, typically. Like the kid that mounted a gun to one. Not an unchallenging task but doable. The nefarious ones operating them is breeding the fear and probably won't be long before law enforcement has them in great numbers which is just another topic of escalation of black/white hats...never ending.

I watched your train derailment post this morning and the first thing I thought, after being captivated by the automated rail building gif (train building it's own track), was that here we are designing and build these wonderful tools to benefit humankind only to tear them apart because of some political struggle gone awry. This drone, mini drone and micro drone stuff will go the same way imho...and still affects it's human inventors in so many ways. UPS has a program now and I think Amazon too, to deliver packages to high density populaces, which in it self may be a good thing eco wise, and maybe a prudent benefit. However that would tie it to infrastructure. Huuuhm...a Battelle disruptor... 

Honestly I wish the eagle didn't have to waste his time on catching drones. Lot of stuff on YT about big birds snagging them...maybe they think they are irritating buzzing rats with wings.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Omar Bradley comes to mind...."If we continue to develop our technology with out wisdom and prudence, our servant may prove to be our executioner." And to top it off...Lily Tomlin, "The trouble with the rat race is that even if you win, you’re still a rat." 

: Hattip: ~PJ

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## Jon

I think we might end up with basic inexpensive household anti-drone devices that attach to a roof or exterior wall. Right now, there are two FAA-issued legal distinctions surrounding drones: registration (any remotely-piloted aircraft flown outdoors and weighing between 0.55 and 55 pounds must be registered), and line-of-sight (if you remotely pilot an aircraft out of your line of sight, as opposed to, say a model airplane, you need additional training and certification as a drone pilot). These both make sense, and we'll see how they play out.

There is a great irony surrounding the dual creation and destruction of technology inspired by warfare. On the one hand, we build stuff to destroy stuff. On the other hand, we are still reliant on conflict to motivate creation and advancement of technology. Right now I'm working on a great Tool Talk post involving World War I, World War II, The Cold War, aviation, engineering history, and lots of old black-and-white photos of machinery. The biggest theme is the interplay between metalforming and warmaking. Working title: "The Largest Tool in the World".

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## Toolmaker51

> I'm working on a great Tool Talk post involving World War I, World War II, The Cold War, aviation, engineering history, and lots of old black-and-white photos of machinery. The biggest theme is the interplay between metalforming and warmaking. Working title: "The Largest Tool in the World".



I'd better sit down now, to attend pursuit a modicum of relaxation whist I may, that's my soapbox too!

"Largest Tool" interests me on several levels. Especially potential 'size' of equipment generating it.
"biggest tool" I've already begun to forget about; not sure but dufus #1 or #2 are prime candidates!

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## C-Bag

I wondered how long it would be before drones were legislated into oblivion for all except the gubment to use. The whole thing for me is such a double edged sword....it has such promise for good but it's quickly going the "Sky Net" route with summary executions in far off lands without much due process. Could it be plausible deniability when they program a drone to do a mission autonomously and it kills the "wrong" persons? As usual it's hard to get the real facts also about how many equipment failures there are too. 

Meanwhile every military in the world is getting their own drone fleets. Did you see the Russian drone heavy tank they fielded not to long ago? The whole drone and high altitude bombing scheme of removing aggressors from the close and personal horror of war can't be a good thing IMHO. Turns the whole world into a video game.

We went and toured a robotics exhibition of mostly school aged kids tonite and notably the only ones who were not kids had some very high tech and big drones on display. There is a company with military contracts building drones here and I saw a job opening. I fit the bill, even having their wet dream, a A&P license. As much as the nerd in me would LOVE to build and be part of a team manufacturing all sizes of flying contraptions the moral side of me couldn't do it. After my kids were born and I had a vested interest in what kind of world I was helping to leave behind I knew I couldn't continue to fix cars and support a petroleum based economy. That's when I bailed and made food packing equipment. So how in the world could I build drones for the military? It's getting harder and harder to do no harm either directly or indirectly. I know Oppenheimer deeply regretted his part in birthing the bomb. How many others were working on something to make the world better like in the book:
The Alchemy of Air Audiobook | Thomas Hager | Audible.com

And they take the discovery of how to extract nitrogen from the air to make fertilizer as the world is running out of supplies of guano and the Nazi regime use it to make munitions in WWII. 

Like the old Quicksilver Messenger Service song goes, "Oh God, pride of man, broken in the dust again"....

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## Paul Jones

I had not given drones too much interest except around wildfire season in Southern California and when the someone illegally uses a drone for a better view of the wildfires and forces the water dropping planes and helicopters to be grounded. That is when drone elimination weapons would be useful. I think Cal Fire and other agencies will be able to use their own drones for better fire fighting logistics.

I did not have much use for drones until we started looking into placing solar panels on our southern facing backyard slope instead of the back roof top. I have a neighbor in the higher hillside area of Yorba Linda, CA that flies a drone for creating high resolution videos of the homes in the higher hillsides around 1,300 feet above sea level. We are farther down the hillside at 750' above SL and now considering installing solar panels on our southern exposure hillside. Our next door neighbor just did this but I had no idea who else in the area had installed solar electric until I found on YouTube the high resolution videos produced by the neighbor flying the drones (see for example 

 ). This help me to make the business decision that installing solar panels on the back slope was more common than I thought and a less expensive option than a roof top installation.

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## PJs

Great Posts Guys!

Jon: Looking forward to your post of the Big Machines. As for the FAA control...Idunno that'll be a tough sell. Thinking they are going to have a _hard time enforcing it_ especially with the RC (AMA) guys let alone how many are out there now. They are even being used in DIY and other shows on TV now. I look for the shadows of them now.  :Wink:  Every mall has a kiosk now selling them and its where I got my quad-copter car to play with my grand kids with. Maybe they can regulate altitude and airspace but weights that broad are tough imho. Either way its not the drone it's the operator and payloads that bother me most. The idea of some joker with a camera watching whatever they want...Paparanazzi's, news media, DOT, law enforcement or any other agency under the patriot act, let a lone the rogue black hats, sharks and squirrels. 




> There is a great irony surrounding the dual creation and destruction of technology inspired by warfare. On the one hand, we build stuff to destroy stuff. On the other hand, we are still reliant on conflict to motivate creation and advancement of technology.



Totally agree about the irony of it or maybe it's non-comical tragedy, but not sure I agree with we are still reliant on conflict to motivate creation. I do agree some of the tech comes from conflicted times but not reliant on it for creation. One of the most recent genius times was around the turn of the 20th century. The minds from that era were incredibly visionary and transformational imho. There were also conflicts going on all over the world at the time and yet it was a political assassination that triggered WWI, which used the new flying contraptions, and yes created chlorine gas, tanks and better weapons. However Farnsworth didn't invent the television (image dissector) for war nor his Fusor to make bombs but power, or Tesla's AC generation for the electric chair (or elephants as Edison did)...these were altruistic visions brought to form and misused (IMHO) by the power brokers that be. You are correct though in the last 50-75 years that the military has had the most money to spend on the creations that broker war for the better or worse. Even John Browning I admire for his engineering to create a firearm that was reliable and accurate, but he was sported by the military and the companies that sprung from that. I always admired NASA because they had a mission of technology for Advancement into space and the trickle down from that has been almost immeasurable...but then there was Star Wars... Sorry for the rant, but if we could channel these wonderful resources with wisdom, Conscious long term thought with some moral ethics beyond religion and learned behavior...we could do some cool stuff...all in my opinion of course. 

C-Bag: Thanks for the link to the book. I'll put it on my list!! Also agree with the Oblivion Laws...way too many, way too many pages written by liers with a not so altruistic agenda and obfuscating the real issues at hand. Glad I'm not the only one who listened to John Cipollina...good quote.

Paul: I so en-joy the good flavor and thoughts you seem to always bring to the party. The idea of firefighters using drones is a really good side of these as well as making good business decisions from the information for yourself and your solar enterprise. The 4K video from your neighbor was stunning and the music wonderful for the topic. It does however bring to mind what detail can be rendered from a 4k video...like reading golf balls from a satellite back in the late 60's. Wish I new your method for staying positive!

Perhaps like TM taking a seat, I should step back and  :Popcorn:  for a while...I may be in it up to my ears.

 :Hat Tip:  ~PJ

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## Paul Jones

PJs,

Years ago, I learned to stay positive by coming to the realization of what I can and cannot control. Things I could not control used to bother me and it caused more worry, frustration and depression. I finally realized to focus on being excellent at what I can control and if possible create my own future by having goals and vision on where I wanted to be. This keeps me focused on things I can control and in the end, I am much happier. 

I also think back to one of the greatest influences in my life and this was when I was a kid. I was reading the original Declaration of Independence adopted by the Second Continental Congress meeting in Philadelphia on July 4, 1776. The one section that caught my imagination forever was:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

The last four words "the pursuit of Happiness" has given me direction and keeps me positive. That is what makes me tick.

Somewhere in HMT I mentioned one of my guiding principles at work for everyone was "A fun place to work" and it was due to the pursuit of Happiness. 

Paul

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PJs (Sep 27, 2016)

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## PJs

Once again Paul the good words flow. Thank You. Truly good words of wisdom and forethought by some wise men, to the core of their issues at hand. A good rock for a foundation!

Just had a conversation with someone else recently about the Declaration of Independence which I had a small book of it and the Constitution on my desk for years and read often. It was given to me by my Dad many years ago now...and it's not on my desk now and can't remember if I gave it to my son or its a matter of CRS or _maybe_ those Circumlocution guys got it. Also starting to wonder if I'm not on some strange version of PJtv or The Truman Show lately. 

Either way I will endeavor to keep a focus on the pursuit of happiness. I always admired that Heinlein quote from _Time Enough for Love_; "Never appeal to a man's better nature, he may not have one. Invoking his self-interests gives you more leverage", which has multiple meanings as well.

Thanks for being a great rock in the HMT foundation! ~PJ  :Hat Tip:

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## C-Bag

My fav drone vid of Morro Rock, which I look out on every evening when Izzy dog and I go for our constitutional.





How's that for tieing in constitution and rock!

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## Frank S

Ha,ha I grok.

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PJs (Sep 28, 2016)

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## Frank S

Sorry last transmission was interrupted I sometimes feel like a stranger in a strange land 
Synthetic nitrogen also called the Haber process, drones the size of humming birds carrying cameras, infrared heat sensors, hand held lasers powerful enough to blind pilots, self driving vehicles creating traffic jams. Virtually everything in new electronics include wi-fi plus GPS. 3d printers capable of printing with actual living cells, inject-able artificial cartilage genetically modified crops with extreme high tonnage yields. Octogenarians who look and act like they are in their 50s or even 40's 
All of this and we still haven't colonized the moon even though as far back as the early 70's we possessed the means to do so

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## Jon

Another drone takedown strategy:



Your browser does not support the video tag.

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## Toolmaker51

Single or double ply, home or institutional grade?

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## Frank S

This past weekend we were driving to town for something Off in the near distance about 5 miles from the house I see something flying it was a few 100 yards off the highway so I slowed down to see what it was not able to drive and take pictures at the same time I handed my phone to the wife who is not tech savy enough to take pictures with my phone even though she tried several times she never could get a shot of it pretty soon it was shot out of the sky I guess because it suddenly looked like it had been knocked sideways then fell like a rock. I think it was probably a drone some hunter had sent up to locate game animals but someone else saw it and used it as target practice We do have a couple of farmer/ranchers in the area who use a drone to check on their crops or stock but they are several miles from me in the other direction so I doubt it it was one of theirs. I will say this though if any drone ever flies over my property and I happen to see it or hear it, it will become the subject of target practice for me because I have no neighbors within a mile of me so I know it won't be one of theirs

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## Jon

Turkish soldier armed with a drone jammer. I believe this is at a recent New Year's celebration in Taksim Square in Istanbul.



And here's the brochure for the drone jammer, from a Turkish military supply company: http://www.aselsan.com.tr/en-us/pres...ASAVAR_ENG.pdf

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PJs (Sep 21, 2018)

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## Jon

A police drone catches a drone with a net.



Your browser does not support the video tag.

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## Frank S

I wonder if they read it it's rights first?

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## PJs

> Another drone takedown strategy:



TP Drone-ing or Drone TP'ing...Charmin-Cottenelle Ultra...what ever it takes.

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Toolmaker51 (Dec 21, 2018)

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## PJs

> A police drone catches a drone with a net.
> 
> <video controls autoplay loop>
> <source src="https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/hmt-forum/catching_drone_with_drone_net.mp4" type="video/mp4">
> Your browser does not support the video tag.
> </video>






> I wonder if they read it it's rights first?



What ever happened to "Please step away from the plane" or "There can be only ONE!" Is this the PC way of drone take down?

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## ranald

Love it! More fun would be to use a slingshot or shangeye as we called them as kids. Great practice. We used to shoot birds & cook them in large peach tins in the local bush land.

As an adult I used to use one for chasing the cats with their hob-nailed boots off our metal roof when living in surburbia. Pretty cruel if one is hit as they leap about 3 metres straight in the air towards the stars. Buggers would be back a week later. I used ice from a tray (almost symmetrical) and when the ice melted it would simply drain off the roof ( much better than marbles, ball bearings or stones) and less likely to break anything with a ricochet.

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## Jon

3:30 video:

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## Frank S

wouldn't a 36 " barrel 12 ga full choke shotgun be just as effective and have a longer range

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## Jon

14-second video:

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## ranald

technology to combat technology: next step=more techno rubbish............ er great inventions.

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## PJs

Seems like a pricey limited range device. The website says; "Multiple SkyWall100 counter drone systems were deployed during a visit from the President of the United States of America to Berlin."...too bad he couldn't make it to memorial day for the troops because of rain. 

https://openworksengineering.com/skywall

Why not just go whole hog...with the skywall300



Too bad the gun toting drone vid didn't show the target¿

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## ranald

It isn't just the chemical companies & doctors that like to create something that they need to fix at a later date.

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Toolmaker51 (Dec 23, 2018)

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## nova_robotics

Doesn't this seem like an extremely low amount of recoil? Like an unbelievably low amount? Do you think that gun is shooting blanks?

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bigtrev8xl (Dec 23, 2018)

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## Howder1951

I'll be back!
SKYNET 2018

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## JoeVanGeaux

> Doesn't this seem like an extremely low amount of recoil? Like an unbelievably low amount? Do you think that gun is shooting blanks?



Yeah, I was thinking the same thing... to the point where that drone/gun combo would be a single-shot "solution"... then recover the drone for parts!! lol

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## Radioman

The recoil looks fine to me. My question is how’s the accuracy?

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PJs (Dec 26, 2018)

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## high-side

> Love it! More fun would be to use a slingshot or shangeye as we called them as kids. Great practice. We used to shoot birds & cook them in large peach tins in the local bush land.
> 
> As an adult I used to use one for chasing the cats with their hob-nailed boots off our metal roof when living in surburbia. Pretty cruel if one is hit as they leap about 3 metres straight in the air towards the stars. Buggers would be back a week later. I used ice from a tray (almost symmetrical) and when the ice melted it would simply drain off the roof ( much better than marbles, ball bearings or stones) and less likely to break anything with a ricochet.



I'd like to shoot you with a marble, ball bearing, a stone, and a chunk of ice to see which you prefer.

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## Toolmaker51

Insufficient recoil, certainly isn't a centerfire handgun. Many [most] semi-auto's can't chamber successive rounds without a decent grip or weak wrist. Inertia of slide versus restrained frame assures full ejection of spent case and strips cartridge from magazine. 
This armed drone looks to carry a full sized pistol ie 1911, Beretta 92 etc. Whatever pistol, instead of it's standard round 9mm, .45, sure not 10mm or Coonan .357; is I'll bet fitted with a rimfire .22 conversion kit. A full size target .22 would also operate suspended in a drone ie S&W 41, Ruger MK IV etc. 
The drone's reaction to recoil shows near perfect straight line evidence of Newton's law. Muzzle rise [handguns] stem from the wrist, effectively an axle or trunnion, below centerline of bore. Countering the effect, Olympic style [free pistol] are peculiarly configured to lower bore centerline with web between thumb and forefinger. The Morini and Hammerli are good examples, but are single shot. 
For me, neither S&W 41's or Medalist Browning's in personal collection would be subjected this kind of undignified activity.

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## PJs

> Insufficient recoil, certainly isn't a centerfire handgun. Many [most] semi-auto's can't chamber successive rounds without a decent grip or weak wrist. Inertia of slide versus restrained frame assures full ejection of spent case and strips cartridge from magazine. 
> This armed drone looks to carry a full sized pistol ie 1911, Beretta 92 etc. Whatever pistol, instead of it's standard round 9mm, .45, sure not 10mm or Coonan .357; is I'll bet fitted with a rimfire .22 conversion kit. A full size target .22 would also operate suspended in a drone ie S&W 41, Ruger MK IV etc. 
> The drone's reaction to recoil shows near perfect straight line evidence of Newton's law. Muzzle rise [handguns] stem from the wrist, effectively an axle or trunnion, below centerline of bore. Countering the effect, Olympic style [free pistol] are peculiarly configured to lower bore centerline with web between thumb and forefinger. The Morini and Hammerli are good examples, but are single shot. 
> For me, neither S&W 41's or Medalist Browning's in personal collection would be subjected this kind of undignified activity.



Not sure I agree about the rim fire based on the mussel blast, seems pretty big to me even for a LR, but you are spot on about the mounting. I've loosed a few rounds from a 1911 with a 22 barrel/receiver and this has more flash than that...but don't know much of other (larger/older) rim fire rounds. What ever that pistol is it looks to have a 15 round clip. Interesting thought because of the size of the magazine...might be Hornets (center fire) or Winchester magnum which would give that size blast. Definitely a mystery pistol to me...receiver is odd.

Most curios to me would be how they remote triggered it. Even with a 2-4lb pull the mechanism must be light, robust and repeatable. Looks to have a camera/laser below the barrel too which probably adds balance to the lack of muzzle rise we see in stop motion as well as Gyro stabilization built into the drone. 4 rounds in 14 seconds and a ~2-3 foot drop per (flat or not, almost turned into a weed eater) makes me question its accuracy...floating target or not.

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Toolmaker51 (Dec 27, 2018)

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## ranald

> I'd like to shoot you with a marble, ball bearing, a stone, and a chunk of ice to see which you prefer.



Thanks Pat, you get that.
After weeks of broken sleep from a feral I loose my tolerance (as it becomes torture): at least these days (almost 4 decades on) authorities are trying to do something about desexing cats & dogs before the problem gets worse. We have even reintroduced dingos into fenced areas of 1000's of hectacres of bushland with similar results as in the US with wolves. In our areas, foxes & ferals have disappeared & small marsupials have grown in numbers. Can't do it in suburbia so traps sometimes work. To see your dog ripped by a feral is no fun either. Where I live now wild dogs are as much a problem as cats and both are usually too smart for traps.

Joe South=walk a mile.
cheers

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Toolmaker51 (Jan 10, 2019)

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## Jon

Your browser does not support the video tag.

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## Frank S

> <video controls autoplay loop>
> <source src="https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/hmt-forum/jetski_drone_takedown.mp4" type="video/mp4">
> Your browser does not support the video tag.
> </video>



I've got to try that the next time I find myself on a jet ski in rough seas and there is a drone flying overhead

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## Jon

Russian VTOL UAV with semiautomatic shotgun.



Your browser does not support the video tag.


These drone-mounted weapons are rather disturbing. But if it's being done to shoot down OTHER drones, well then, that's perfectly reasonable.

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## Frank S

Reply to post #38 that is one scary piece of kit the possibilities of its deployment in a crowded outdoor gathering is frightening to say the least.

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Toolmaker51 (Mar 28, 2019)

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## Toolmaker51

> Reply to post #38 that is one scary piece of kit the possibilities of its deployment in a crowded outdoor gathering is frightening to say the least.



Like many things, the concept is fine. All's well, until nefarious intentions ensue.

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## Jon

Drone + chainsaw. 2:53 video:




Am I crazy to think that there's actually something useful here, for arborist work?

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## Frank S

> Drone + chainsaw. 2:53 video:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Am I crazy to think that there's actually something useful here, for arborist work?



Actually I'd like to rent that one to trim up a couple of trees in my front yard. I promise not to have any killer balloons floating near by.

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## Ralphxyz

I would have liked to see more tree cutting. or to have at least seen the orientation of the drone when cutting the icicles.

Been think of doing arborist work before the drones were big enough to lift the chain saw.


Now with the GPS control one should be able to program some actual work.

Ralph

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## Hans Pearson

Anti Paparazzi drones.

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## Jon

AK-47 drone. 0:57 video:

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## ranald

What will our childrens' childrens' childrens see, if the planet remains intact? Remember Zager & Evans "in the year 2525".

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## Jon

> What will our childrens' childrens' childrens see, if the planet remains intact? Remember Zager & Evans "in the year 2525".



If we continue down this AK-47 drone path, I'm thinking the future will look something like this classic scene from Zardoz:

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ranald (May 6, 2019)

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## ranald

LOL. Looked like a B grade Burt Reynolds: was Ron Reagan in that lot?

But it is really scarey where tech is going.

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## Toolmaker51

Uhhhh Burt? Only if that's Burt impersonating some guy named Connery,.............[dramatic pause] Sean Connery. 
If Webley's are part of the arsenal, that's not much of a threat. Being positive the director was a film student, guarantee that last shot at the audience is taken from Justus D. Barnes same action at climax of _The Great Train Robbery._

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## ranald

> Uhhhh Burt? Only if that's Burt impersonating some guy named Connery,.............[dramatic pause] Sean Connery. 
> If Webley's are part of the arsenal, that's not much of a threat. Being positive the director was a film student, guarantee that last shot at the audience is taken from Justus D. Barnes same action at climax of _The Great Train Robbery._



I haven't seen that movie with the most popular 007. I guess students have to start somewhere; I do all the time & still cant get lots right; but I try or maybe I'm just trying.

Ron Biggs, a Leo Snake,and a destiny No 1 in numerology=interesting combo without looking at his habitat. Clairvoyants would have a field day with him even if training.

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## Slim-123

> LOL. Looked like a B grade Burt Reynolds: was Ron Reagan in that lot?
> 
> But it is really scarey where tech is going.



Тут дело не в технологиях, а применении их. Ведь можно из этого дрона сделать разносчика презервативов.

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## ranald

> Тут дело не в технологиях, а применении их. Ведь можно из этого дрона сделать разносчика презервативов.



Hi Slim, I'm afraid that is all Greek er Russian to me: no comprehendo but am sure its +ve.

Cheers

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Slim-123 (May 7, 2019)

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## Slim-123

Это русский. Ты всё правильно понял. Установи Google translator. Полезная вещь.

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## ranald

> Это русский. Ты всё правильно понял. Установи Google translator. Полезная вещь.



Mr Mc google you done it again!

cheers & no offence intended.

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## Slim-123

:Smile: :пальцы вверх:

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## Jon

Fun fact: the pistol that Connery fires at the end of that scene is a rare Webley-Fosbery automatic revolver.






More here: Webley-Fosbery automatic revolver

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## ranald

He doesn't look that young there. Can't comment on the costume.
the revolver is pretty.

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## Ed Weldon

Those 7 words are the the fundamental formula for leadership of any grouping of people from a family to a nation. The earlier wording of the phrase by John Locke used the word "property" instead of "happiness." It seems in the 21st century our society has restored "property" to the 7th spot in that phrase where as every day passes it shows how poorly it fits. 
I live in a place where wild-land fires have burned so hot that even cast iron machine tool frames melted. So when I say that, it's with the understanding that some day my workshop and all the hobby projects in my home could well disappear in a day leaving me with nothing much but a burned out and likely unusable piece of land, my retirement savings and Social Security that the basic necessities of life that would gobble up life that would gobble up. But most importantly the people and pets that I know and love would be with me one way or another. 
But that's OK. I was born with a fair intellect and a creative mind. I like to tell those close to me that I would be happy with nothing but them and some paper, a pencil and maybe a pocket knife and a sharpening stone.

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Toolmaker51 (Nov 10, 2019)

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