# Tool Talk >  English/metric measurement error in the Mars Climate Orbiter

## Jon

The Mars Climate Orbiter was a space probe launched by NASA in 1998. It was loaded with scientific measurement instruments, and it was supposed to enter orbit around Mars, gather data, and then communicate its findings back to Earth. Instead, it disintegrated.

Here's the Mars Climate Orbiter:



The orbiter completed a 286-day journey to Mars, and then fired its engine to push itself into orbit. However, something went wrong - on September 23, 1999, NASA lost contact with the orbiter.

What happened? NASA organized an investigation with a Mishap Investigation Board, which produced a detailed report. The suspected root cause? Failure to use the metric system. Here's a highlighted section from the NASA report:



All systems were supposed to use metric measurement, but a single software file was using English units instead. As a result, thruster measurements were miscalculated, and the orbiter was hundreds of kilometers off course, causing it to (most likely) disintegrate in the Martian atmosphere.

NASA handled the failure pretty well, at least externally. Rather than point the finger at Lockheed, whose engineers had programmed the software, they acknowledged that, while the software measurement error was the root problem, it was their responsibility to validate and verify the measurement systems to identify any such errors.



But when you read between the lines, the vague phrasing about communication structures and auditing processes seems to point at the age-old conflict between engineers and management. Some relevant industry magazines (like Aviation Week and Spectrum) published a good bit of anonymously sourced i-told-you-so's (this Spectrum article is especially notable). It looks like some of the involved engineers knew that the official story was being spun, and they leaked the dirty details to the industry press.

NASA's official claim was that nobody knew that the orbiter was off course until communication was lost. However, Spectrum's position was that some of the engineers voiced strong concerns, but were pushed aside by management.




> This is the remaining inconsistency between NASA's official version of what happened and the one reconstructed by Spectrum. Our conclusion is that adequate doubts had been raised to require the TCM-5 burn, even in an emergency mode. Further, according to participants in this tragedy of errors, by the time the probe reached Mars, those most "in the know" were persuaded it was already doomed by its sick trajectory--but by then it was too late.



The incident is a fascinating combination of measurement errors, programming errors, management errors, and public relations errors. These mistakes collectively resulted in the loss of a $328 million spacecraft, and demonstrated that, unlike people, errors are great at working together.

Previously:

International Space Station tools
astronaut loses $100,000 tool bag during spacewalk

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EnginePaul (Oct 24, 2018),

Henri (Jun 21, 2017),

Moby Duck (Jun 18, 2017),

oldcaptainrusty (Feb 25, 2018),

Paul Jones (Jun 19, 2017),

Priemsy (Feb 24, 2018),

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Seedtick (Jun 18, 2017),

Tonyg (Apr 16, 2019),

Trojan Horse (Jun 21, 2017),

volodar (Feb 23, 2019)

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## mklotz

Nothing ever gets fixed until a bunch of people die. It's going to require something like flying two fully-loaded A380 Airbuses into each other before we get rid of this nonsense of trying to use two measurement systems side-by-side.

The system is already cocked and loaded. The world standard for measuring and assigning flight level is feet, but China (and a few of its immediate neighbors) uses meters. Quick, is an assigned FL of 10000 m equal to 32000 or 33000 ft? And while you're worrying about that, when they refuel your plane in China for the trans-Pacific return do they measure fuel in pounds or kilograms?

On a completely unrelated idiocy, yesterday I was driving around in downtown Los Angeles. This is an active earthquake zone, near the San Andreas fault, and there are 50-60 story buildings across the street from each other! Oh, they're all certified "earthquake proof" construction. Yeah, sure. The tallest building is 83 stories. One good shake and it'll be toppling dominoes on a gargantuan scale. Even if a building doesn't fall, the tons of glass cladding falling to the street will do a slice and dice that I don't want to see.

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rlm98253 (Jun 18, 2017),

Toolmaker51 (Jun 25, 2017),

volodar (Oct 10, 2018)

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## NortonDommi

Above all else remember that every stuff-up starts in an office and the usual instigator is a University Educated Idiot that is too clever to make a mistake. :Rimshot:

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Toolmaker51 (Jun 25, 2017),

Trojan Horse (Jun 21, 2017)

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## elk-a-holic

Already has been a major fuel mishap caused by mix up between units. Tragedgy was averted through luck and good piloting. For more look up "Gimli glider" which is a case of an out of fuel passenger plane making a dead stick landing on an abandoned WW2 training airstrip in Manitoba.

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volodar (Oct 10, 2018)

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## SRQSid

I recall a component in the Hubble Space Telescope camera had an English/Metric mix up that caused blurry images until a later mission applied corrective lenses (contacts?). The best-laid plans.....

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## mklotz

> Above all else remember that every stuff-up starts in an office and the usual instigator is a University Educated Idiot that is too clever to make a mistake.



Well, speaking as a "University Educated Idiot that [sic] is too clever to make a mistake" I'd advise you that demeaning education is no way to solve the problem.

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tonyfoale (Feb 25, 2018),

volodar (Oct 10, 2018)

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## mklotz

> I recall a component in the Hubble Space Telescope camera had an English/Metric mix up that caused blurry images until a later mission applied corrective lenses (contacts?). The best-laid plans.....



It wasn't "an English/Metric mix up". They neglected to make a simple test that would have revealed the error.

"Perkin-Elmer, which built Hubble at its Danbury plant in Connecticut, tested the primary and secondary mirrors separately, but no one tested the complete telescope before launch. An earlier check by NASA absolved the design itself of blame, leading the agency to narrow the inquiry to possible errors in the testing of the mirrors."

The complete story is here...

https://www.newscientist.com/article...mirror-fiasco/

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Paul Jones (Jun 19, 2017),

volodar (Oct 10, 2018)

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## NortonDommi

Regarding U.E.I'S,(University Educated Idiots), there are a lot of them out there, I know this as I personally have encountered a great many of them. That is not to say that everyone who graduates with a degree is an idiot, far from it but a piece of paper that [I]should[I]demonstrate a capacity for intelligent and rational thought is in today's world no guaranty and it is in the occupation of 'manager' that the unworthy usually surface.
I was not demeaning education more the questionable quality of some and the 'teaching' of subjects that are not and never will be of use to anyone also the adherence to wacky theories.
In the cases mentioned and a space shuttle disaster the fundamental problem was not an Imperial/metric problem it was system errors or more correctly people errors due to not following a system and there not being sufficient checks in place.
Everybody makes mistakes hopefully there is a system that is vigorously followed to catch them before they become catastrophic.

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Trojan Horse (Jun 21, 2017)

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## 12bolts

As a commercial diver, I dealt with a fair number of engineers during my career. The difficulties they had were just grasping the basics of buoyant force mainly. Tertiary educated people that write things down and think that because it works in principle it must work in practice. A couple of examples that spring to mind are that of a civil job laying a railway track under water. The company freighted in a semi load of sleepers for the track to be laid on. We tried to tell them they wouldnt be able to position them. But the engineer responsible was adamant that because they were "so heavy" they would do the job. The crane lowered them into the water and we released the chains and watched as the waves washed them ashore again. On another job, a pipeline tie-in, the new section of pipe was manufactured, (about 100 metres long x 800mm dia) and capped at each end. This was then fitted with hundreds of 200 lt drums for buoyancy and floated into position. The drums were then selectively removed in a calculated manner to provide a controlled descent into position. After the last drums were cut loose this pipeline was still bobbing on the surface like a cork. Even setting moorings. Everybody thinks concrete is great for a mooring because its "so heavy" A m3 of dry concrete weighs almost 2.5 tonne. Problem is it displaces about 1 tonne of water, And it is massive for its weight so it also provides a huge resistance to water currents further undermining its properties as a mooring. A steel plate of maybe 3-400 kg flat on the bottom is far superior to a huge block of concrete.
I could list more that I have personally encountered, and there are dozens more I have heard about, but, its just comes back to people in offices unwilling to listen to experience on the ground.

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Hans Pearson (Jun 19, 2017),

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NortonDommi (Jun 19, 2017),

PJs (Feb 24, 2018),

Toolmaker51 (Jun 25, 2017),

Trojan Horse (Jun 21, 2017)

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## drum365

Great writeup, Jon. Your article's last 8 words have gone into my "Great Quotations" file!

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PJs (Feb 24, 2018)

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## Hans Pearson

Theory without practice is sterile but practice without theory is blind.

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drum365 (Jun 19, 2017),

NortonDommi (Feb 25, 2018),

PJs (Feb 24, 2018),

Toolmaker51 (Jun 25, 2017),

Trojan Horse (Jun 21, 2017)

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## NortonDommi

Hi 12bolts,
Your examples are hilarious! It's a long time since I have laughed so hard as Your description was so good I felt as if I was there.
Your statement of Tertiary educated people that think theory is equal to reality is so true. By the way I have a Trade Certificate to prove I completed 9000 hrs of theory and practice though the theory I am still working on as things change so I have a tertiary education like every other tradesman.
There are a few books written by Robert Townsend,(nothing to do with music), on management practices and he stresses that nobody knows the job like those actually doing it and nearly all people doing anything that involves the body as well as the mind can develop shortcuts and efficient work practices so they should be allowed to do what they know does or will work.
It has also been my experience that people with a trade who then decide to obtain a degree or higher usually have a need to do so and are exactly the sort of person that I want directing the show if it is not me as they usually have "street smarts' when it comes to job approach .

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## Jack55

Hello All, This discussion prompted me to make my first post. My father worked for a coal company in the 50's. They wanted him and his crew to float a pump out onto the surface of a tailings pond. The engineer in charge gave them a sketch for a set of pontoons to be fabricated out of steel pipe. A couple of the men were WWII Navy Seabees so they knew how things float, but they also followed orders. They fabricated the pontoons to spec, mounted the pump and pulled it out into the pond, where it promptly sank. As they were dragging it out of the pond the engineer showed up, pondered the problem and came up with a brilliant solution. He told them to weld a couple of valve stems onto the pontoons and fill them with air. Don't know if they followed that order or not.

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Moby Duck (Feb 24, 2018),

Toolmaker51 (Jun 25, 2017),

Trojan Horse (Jun 21, 2017)

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## Trojan Horse

> Well, speaking as a "University Educated Idiot that [sic] is too clever to make a mistake" I'd advise you that demeaning education is no way to solve the problem.



mklotz, 
I don't believe he meant that everyone who is "University Educated" is an idiot, nor was he purposely demeaning education. I think he is talking about those who are too full of themselves and think they cannot make a mistake. I think we have all ran across a few of those kinds of people in our lifetimes, I know I sure have met my share of them.

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Toolmaker51 (Jun 25, 2017)

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## Henri

That was fascinating, Jon! A few things to sort out before they send humans, not so?  :Big Grin:

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## mklotz

> mklotz, 
> I don't believe he meant that everyone who is "University Educated" is an idiot, nor was he purposely demeaning education. I think he is talking about those who are too full of themselves and think they cannot make a mistake. I think we have all ran across a few of those kinds of people in our lifetimes, I know I sure have met my share of them.



I'm glad you don't; I do.

There's a growing tendency in society today to put down education. Given that education was once a respected attribute and much sought after, it's hard to understand this turn around in popular opinion. I have my own ideas about its causes but presenting them would just cause a lot of bickering that we don't need on this forum.

If you want to badmouth the engineer who didn't get it right, do so with my blessing but, when you do it, leave out the generalizations like "university-educated idiot" and concentrate on describing how dumb the offending individual was.

If one thinks that, because of all his hands-on experience, the fellow who provided the plans has missed the boat he should do the calculations himself and present the results to the fellow, proving to him the error of his ways. You'll either be thanked and given a bonus or fired for your impertinence. Either way you win; if fired, you'll be freed up to find a job with a firm that appreciates your on-job-learned engineering design skills.

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Tonyg (Apr 14, 2019),

Toolmaker51 (Jun 25, 2017)

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## MiTasol

> And while you're worrying about that, when they refuel your plane in China for the trans-Pacific return do they measure fuel in pounds or kilograms?.



Many countries use Kilos for fuel and have done so for over 30 years. Use your search engine to look for the Gimli Glider.

On July 23, 1983, Air Canada Flight 143,a Canadian 767 that ran out of fuel because the refueling was done using conversion factors for pounds instead of kilos.

My favourite link is The Gimli Glider / Air Canada

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## MiTasol

> Above all else remember that every *stuff-up starts in an office and the usual instigator is a University Educated Idiot* that is too clever to make a mistake.



As a UEI who had thirty years of hands on practical (including a five year apprenticeship in Aircraft Maintenance) prior to starting my degrees I totally agree with the bolded section above and would replace _every_ with _many a_.

Far too many graduates are full of *education* and totally lacking *intelligence and common sense*. They confuse the ability to write essays that are graded by people with no practical experience with demonstrating *learning*.

Worse still the ego of many ensures they lack the ability to read the component manufacturers publications which clearly identify how the component works and how it will not work. Some, when you point out their error, throw a tantrum that a two year old would be proud of.

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## NortonDommi

Marv,
Trojan Horse is correct, I was not demeaning education,(something I value very highly), or every person with a University degree.
Your comments regarding education being undervalued or demeaned in today's society may be correct and if so has been bought about by the actions and attitude of those with degrees in subjects like social politics, futurology ect. and the attitude of others with degrees in similar subjects when it comes to employment.
For example I went for a job as an inhouse tool salesman but was told I would not be considered because I did not have a degree - in anything. If I had had a degree in the mating habits of Polar Bears I proberly would have gotten the job. It is this elitist attitude by an ever increasing number of people that have degrees that are of no real use that causes trades people like me to coin the term 'University Educated Idiot'. There are a lot of them. Respect is earned not given by demand.
The ability to learn and continue to learn are to be highly prized and today with access to the interweb many younger people are becoming increasingly eclectic in their thirst for knowledge, Maker Magazine is a good example of this.
One thing that annoys me is the way in which the education system in the Western world has been hijacked by 'wally's' with wacky theories the result being that there are many University graduates who cannot understand any written word with more than three syllables, cannot understand mathematics beyond simple arithmetic etc. I would like to see mathematics, reading and writing,(the 3 R's), taught before anything else as this allows an individual to learn anything they wish.
To return to where this all diverged, the failures you cite are not to do with Imperial or Metric systems and mix-ups they are directly attributable to a PERSON and/or PEOPLE not thinking about what they are meant to be doing and a SYSTEM FAILURE in that mistakes were not picked up. What level of education did the people involved have?
I was once told that "perfection is no small thing and the path to perfection lies in attention to the small things." Something I try,(not always successfully), to apply to anything I do and I hope that everyone I deal with does the same.
I am sad that you took personal offence at my comments.

- Barry.

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PJs (Feb 24, 2018),

Toolmaker51 (Jun 25, 2017)

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## NortonDommi

As an addendum to the last perhaps I should perhaps add that,(in my opinion),it is accademia that seems to be the root cause of the problem as it is in those lofty realms that the policies of societal engineering are formulated the 'trickle down' effect of which only surfaces one or two generations later.

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## Fast Fergie

> Above all else remember that every stuff-up starts in an office and the usual instigator is a University Educated Idiot that is too clever to make a mistake.



 I thought i was the only one that knew that.
Reminds me of when i was building office blocks, the bane of my life was newly qualified Engineers, they knew everything but could do nothing.  :Angry:

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## Papa Smurf

High intellect, high levels of academic achievement and many years of appropriate experience, in whatever combination, are unable to inoculate a man from the effects of his own (often momentary) inattention (some call it stupidity). Every one of us bears scars of instances when we forgot about gravity, electricity, chemical activity, high (or very low) temperatures, etc. They are rightly called "Laws of Nature" - there are penalties for breaking them, and we've all tried, consciously or unconsciously.

As an afterthought, because of the serious nature of the consequences of a failure, both the nuclear and aerospace industries have developed systems designed to monitor adherence to known safe behaviours (yes, that spelling is correct where I live  :Smile: ), since a human behavioural error can jeopardise the most carefully designed and constructed plant or machine.

Also remember that the development of new technologies most often begins with the inquiring mind and disciplined thought processes of the academic attempting to better understand a particular Law of Nature. The technologist/engineer takes the theoretical idea and finds ways to impliment and industrialise it. The artisan has his part to play in the rollout and maintenance/repair. To poke fun of any part in that chain reduces the likelihood that the original idea will give its potential benefit to mankind.

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PJs (Feb 24, 2018),

Ropetangler (Feb 25, 2018),

Toolmaker51 (Jun 25, 2017)

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## NortonDommi

I seem to recall that Nikola Tesla attended a university to obtain a degree in order to be taken seriously and made it a mission to destroy a professor that denigrated his ideas and theories. He was not the only person to have done this in recent history, others have obtained degrees in order to apply for patents.
Once medical practitioners or 'Doctors' were of the highest standing in society. Today many of them.their practices and the ideas they promote are dubious to say the least.
High intellect does not necessarily equate to high academic achievement, a visit to any prison anywhere will attest to this fact.
Once only the rich and the exceptional were able to gain 'higher' education. Today anyone you can take on debt can attend and courses are tabled accordingly to foster pass rates and revenue. With anyone able to access the interweb the highest skill is weeding the wheat from the chaff so to speak.
Smart kids today are getting information they need to accomplish a task from many sources. This has pro's and con's. For example what happens if you have a burning passion for a subject but can't afford to go to university. What if the only way to advance on the path of your desire is denied due to cost. What if you don't know how to determine what is a fact and what is not. The latter is where guidance is needed. Critical thinking can be taught sadly it rarely is.
My personal belief is that a sea change is coming and that 'we' the human collective will start promoting universities as a place for the most gifted minds in society not just a place to go and get a piece of meaningless paper. This belief/hope is based on the ever increasing costs of not only attending but also supplying education.
Academics have their place but to paraphrase the words of Carroll Smith,(a great engineer).when he stated."an accountant is a glorified bean counter. you employ them to count your beans not to tell you what to do with them".
In other words the academics will always need competent.skilled.practical people and hopefully we will in the future have a fusion.
In our lifetimes it is all academic speculation.

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Toolmaker51 (Jun 25, 2017)

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## Jon

It's a nuanced and fascinating issue. I agree that the college bubble has burst, but for certain fields (specifically the hard sciences) the need to systematically transmit a large body of knowledge will continue to necessitate a formal long-term education.

We do seem to be at a tipping point where the common internet intellectual is challenging the value of the person with a common college degree. At the same time, controversial college admissions processes are chipping away at the merit-driven reputations that elite universities once held.

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NortonDommi (Feb 25, 2018),

PJs (Feb 24, 2018),

Toolmaker51 (Jun 25, 2017)

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## NortonDommi

I'm 100% in agreement that the 'hard sciences' whose body of knowledge was built up over millennia needs to be taught in a structured environment,however that learning environment needs to be flexible and allow for discoveries or theories that are at divergence with the accepted norm.
Nikola Tesla is a prime example. He is cited only because his name is recognisable by many, and some of his achievements well known.
Universities,(as we understand them), it is generally accepted were founded in Greece to foster free thought, discussion of theories and debate. Unfortunately it would be very difficult if not impossible to find one operating on those principles today. Far to many invested egos.
Petty squabbles belong in a pub discussed over a beer or wine.

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PJs (Feb 24, 2018),

Toolmaker51 (Jun 25, 2017)

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## Toolmaker51

> Great writeup, Jon. Your article's last 8 words have gone into my "Great Quotations" file!



 "...unlike people, errors are great at working together."

Posts often contain jewels of wisdom, which I doubt any HMT.net'ers feel a need to shield exterior usage. But just in case, I've edited that statement into...
_Collectively and unlike people, mistakes demonstrate errors are great at working together._
it's filed as drum365 suggested; and now keystone my resume with comments I made about common errors in quality control program.

Here is education. Post-for-post, I don't think any HMT.net thread registers wrinkles in my grey matter faster than these 3 [so far] pages.

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Paul Jones (Feb 27, 2018),

PJs (Feb 24, 2018)

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## owen moore

This reminds me of the astronaut who missed the earth by a million miles during re entry and said "damn that decimal point!"

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## Mi Tasol

> This reminds me of the astronaut who missed the earth by a million miles during re entry and said "damn that decimal point!"



I guess you are quoting the poor dummy driving Tesla's electric car

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## Philip Davies

I first learned of this disaster when reading John Neals book on metrology, All Done With Mirrors. In this, he shows how the English foot is an integrated system of great antiquity, which system is a more accurate fraction of the polar axis than the meter, which unfortunately was calculated without taking into account the fact that the Earth is an oblate sphere . ( I do not subscribe to the notion that the Earth is flat and has 4 corners, although I know people who believe this!) Oh, I am also a graduate of the University of Wales, where I learned to respect opinions for what they are.

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NortonDommi (Feb 25, 2018),

Paul Jones (Feb 27, 2018),

PJs (Jul 5, 2018)

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## mklotz

> I first learned of this disaster when reading John Neals book on metrology, All Done With Mirrors. In this, he shows how the English foot is an integrated system of great antiquity, which system is a more accurate fraction of the polar axis than the meter, which unfortunately was calculated without taking into account the fact that the Earth is an oblate sphere . ( I do not subscribe to the notion that the Earth is flat and has 4 corners, although I know people who believe this!) Oh, I am also a graduate of the University of Wales, where I learned to respect opinions for what they are.



Talking about the "accuracy" of the standard of a measurement system is pure, absolute nonsense!

I suggest you read the following discussion...

http://www.homemadetools.net/forum/g...1486#post93973

in particular, this paragraph...

Some folks want to argue that the metric system is flawed because the length standard it uses is "wrong". The French set out to make the meter one ten-millionth of the distance from the Earth's equator to the North Pole. Their technique for measuring this quantity was inspired and they did an admirable job considering the tools available to them at the time. Still, the value they obtained was very slightly in error. But, NONE OF THIS MATTERS IN THE LEAST. All measurement systems are based on a choice of some arbitrary standard. Whether it's the length of the King's arms or the distance traveled by light in a vacuum in a given period of time, it's the fact that everyone agrees to use that length that's important and the real test of a measurement system is how well it satisfies the criteria outlined at the beginning of this text. THE NOTION OF "ACCURACY" OF A MEASUREMENT SYSTEM IS COMPLETE NONSENSE. Accuracy is a function of the measurement tools and techniques, not the system in which the measurements are expressed.

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olderdan (Feb 25, 2018),

Paul Jones (Feb 27, 2018)

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## Philip Davies

Perhaps it would have been better had I written “which VALUE is part of a system of immense antiquity” (compared to the VALUE of the metre, which as you say, is very slightly in error - partly owing to the oblate sphere of the earth) I had already read your post and I have also read his book and discussed this topic with Neal. My intention, if you read carefully what I have written, is merely to introduce to this forum a well-researched publication on metrology, not to debate whether one system is better than another. Mechain and Delambre (surveyors, 1793) were attempting to find an accurate value of the meridian, a fraction of which would be the basis for the Metric system. The advantage of the polar axis, if it could be accurately determined, is that it is fixed, whereas the meridian varies: that is the point made by the author.

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PJs (Jul 5, 2018)

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## jasonmrye

I feel your pain! If I have one more square peg/round hole/no-go conversation with an engineer, I'm just gonna lose it. Had to take the guy out to the machine I was running and show him before he would believe me. I even used big words (correctly), so he would feel more comfortable.

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Philip Davies (Feb 26, 2018),

Toolmaker51 (Jul 5, 2018)

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## Philip Davies

Thanks, Jason. Big words are my stock-in-trade!

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## NortonDommi

Here's something of interest, Metrickery near the bottom for those that aren't interested in history or how we arrived where we are.
I look forward to your dissection mklotz.

Weights, Measures and Volumes of the Ancient Mediterranean

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Paul Jones (Feb 27, 2018),

Toolmaker51 (Jul 5, 2018)

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## Frank S

Now that was a long read
Thanks for the eye strain headache LOL

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## Philip Davies

Thank you for this reference, which is very intriguing. It will take a long time to absorb this new information, but I am most grateful.

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Paul Jones (Feb 27, 2018),

PJs (Jul 5, 2018)

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## Philip Davies

Now then, Norton, I have begun to study this very interesting article, but oh dear, I have read of a number of astonishing “facts”, which, while plausible, must be regarded as hypotheses, and not likely to be accepted by any academic in the relevant fields. Just thought I’d get that in before someone else does!

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## Frank S

while I was doing some research for a book I was contemplating on writing I read several references ab out 11th & 12 century England's building practices. It turned out that the accepted master builders of the time for very large projects were the master so=tone masons. Whose unit of measure was mostly the pole, or divisions thereof. Most references I found to determine the length of a pole were in average of 3 x of the builder's stature in h Being that most people were quite a bit shorter back then, the average height of man was somewhere around 5 ft 4 to 5 ft 6 which would have commonly placed many of the Master stone Masons in the 5 ft 6 inch height range making the length of their poles being 16.5 ft making them fall in line with he length stated in the article (Weights, Measures and Volumes of the Ancient Mediterranean). One of my research sources was a book series the Pillars of the Earth. In one chapter there was a question an apprentice asked the Master how long was a pole? the Master replied a pole is a pole mine is 3 times my height. Well later on the apprentice became the master builder. Now it has been many years since I read the series but I seam to recollect there were some conflicting measurements between the young apprentice's ( now a master) and the old master since one was much taller than the other.
There are many interesting accounts of units of measure through out history

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Philip Davies (Feb 27, 2018)

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## Philip Davies

Thanks, Frank, although the book you are referring to is fiction, a novel by Ken Follett. What was your book to be about?

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## Frank S

Philip, fiction books are usually grounded with factual events the better ones have many deep rooted although often greatly embellished historical facts buried within the story.
My book was based more on a science fictional genre, centered around a forgotten human settlement which was located on a planet which could have been the Earth but wasn't. The principal character started out as a new born Kentauros also known by some as a Centaur or Centaurtide. to a peasant baker woman who was brutally and forcibly molested by a Knight and his war stallion. The Child grew up to be the supreme Queen of the western Continent. Eventually teaching the people long lost art of forging ores into exotic metal alloys, after she discovered some ancient texts dating back hundreds of thousands of years brought to her planet when it was first colonized.Bringing her people out of the very primitive beginnings of a Bronze age Her cunning inherited knowledge of father's warrior, advanced education and leadership skills coupled with the strength stamina and speed inherited from her sire enabled her to excel in every endeavor she undertook.

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NortonDommi (Mar 3, 2018)

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## NortonDommi

Hello Phillip,
Until we invent time travel I doubt if we will ever know the true 'facts' about ancient history but it is a 'fact' that most of what we do know is theory and therefore subject to change when new discoveries are made. I am not an archaeologist but the author of the article is a very well rounded amateur with over 40 years of research under his belt. He is also in regular contact with others around the world many of them academics employed in universities and museums and he runs his theories by numerous people to find flaws. To date those that refute some of his claims have yet to file any evidence whatsoever to negate his research.
With that in mind I can say that not only that article but many other things point to a common umbrella system that was used by all with regional variations. It seems every week there is a new discovery made regarding our ancestors. Satellite imaging in particular is identifying precise places to investigate at an astounding rate.
In this perennial debate about which is best, Imperial or Metric I think it is a good idea to be aware of some history and are reminded of some T.V. programs I have watched where 'scientists' are trying to figure out why something was built a certain way,(measurement wise), and not succeeding because they insist on using Metric.
Sometimes our reasoning can be too rigid for our own good. If something does not 'look right' it usually isn't. I fix a lot of odd things and some are old and it continually amazes me that people try and use Metric fittings on Imperial machinery and visa versa. The Metric system is not perfect and has many traps for the unwary as does the Imperial system. I think the best we can do is be aware of the fact that there has been and continues to be a number of different systems in use and it is upon us to figure out what is what before diving in.

----------

PJs (Jul 5, 2018),

Toolmaker51 (Mar 4, 2018)

----------


## NortonDommi

Hello Frank,
It is pretty well known that the architects of the Gothic style were members of the Masonic Order and is is pretty unlikely that they did not use a common measurement system, in fact they would have gone to considerable length to protect their 'Trade Secretes'. I don't know about you but I have occasionally indulged in misrepresentation when annoyed at questioning by someone who is disrupting me while I work.

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## Frank S

NortonDommi; you won't get any argument out of me in that regards I'll often spew out some completely flippant answer to a question asked me when I'm concentrating on something else. I had a business partner who was notorious for asking me something while I was deeply involved in some critical project. usually I could interrupt my own train of thought long enough to give him some off offhandedly stupid answer that would send him away scratching his head. But one day he interrupted me trying to assemble a hydraulic valve body loaded with a dozen small springs and check balls I was just about to begin buttoning it up when he did in an instant springs balls wafer washers and hundreds of other small bits went in every direction imaginable. I laid my tools down and calmly answered his question then said you need to order a new spare parts kit for this valve because we'll have a better chance in winning the publisher's clearing house than we will of ever finding all of the parts.
Caterpillar parts are not cheap, he never interrupted me again.

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NortonDommi (Mar 4, 2018),

PJs (Jul 5, 2018),

Toolmaker51 (Mar 4, 2018)

----------


## Philip Davies

Yes, I agree. I am quite slowly going through this article, comparing it with my notes, as it contains much information which is new to me. But the author, Michael Doutre, who styles himself as “Druid Imperior Rhymer”, early on asserts as fact what are dubious theories, anathema to academic archaeologists, who take a scientific approach and do not speculate about prehistory. I accept that it is possible that there may have been a prehistoric civilisation that surveyed the earth and it is well-known that there are a great many measuring systems which are linked by ratios, even when geographically very distant apart. But when I read something like his assertion that an early surveyor, Vyse, forged a cartouche in the Great Pyramid, I recognise the author has an axe to grind, having swallowed the theories of Sitchen (author/conspiracy theorist) . Proper researchers are very diffident when it comes to establishing facts and are careful also to reference their sources. Can you find anything about the author, Lenzen, he cites? I couldn’t!

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mklotz (Mar 4, 2018),

Paul Jones (Mar 4, 2018),

PJs (Jul 5, 2018)

----------


## Philip Davies

Yes, Frank, you are not the only one. But what about the wife?

----------


## Frank S

> Yes, Frank, you are not the only one. But what about the wife?



 after nearly 30 years her drivel of questions are still non stop but she has learned at least that if I am not directly looking at her to keep her yap shut other wise I'm just going to ignore her as if I didn't hear anything, which thankfully due to failing hearing I usually do not. That is one good thing about hearing loss I don't have to have a radio in my truck or if it happens to be switched on I can drive in blissful peace and not hear music she may be playing as long as she keeps it turned down low I can't stand someone trying to carry on a conversation with me or music of any kind while I am driving or working The nice thing about my computer is the off switch for the speakers when I am watching videos that have music.

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## Terence Hogan

Hi Philip,
As you can see, the link you sent was successful.

Regarding the book referenced by Martin Doutre.

It's a very good book, hardcover of 104 pages. I bought it second-hand as it only had one printing ( that I am aware of), and was self published by Donald L. Lenzen, in June 1989. It's Library of Congress Catalog Card number is #89-91279 (not that that probably matters!). Jon Bosak's " The Old Measure" pub PINAX in August 2010 is an excellent look at the history and lineage of the American Customary Measures.

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## tooly

> As a commercial diver, I dealt with a fair number of engineers during my career. The difficulties they had were just grasping the basics of buoyant force mainly. Tertiary educated people that write things down and think that because it works in principle it must work in practice. A couple of examples that spring to mind are that of a civil job laying a railway track under water. The company freighted in a semi load of sleepers for the track to be laid on. We tried to tell them they wouldnt be able to position them. But the engineer responsible was adamant that because they were "so heavy" they would do the job. The crane lowered them into the water and we released the chains and watched as the waves washed them ashore again. On another job, a pipeline tie-in, the new section of pipe was manufactured, (about 100 metres long x 800mm dia) and capped at each end. This was then fitted with hundreds of 200 lt drums for buoyancy and floated into position. The drums were then selectively removed in a calculated manner to provide a controlled descent into position. After the last drums were cut loose this pipeline was still bobbing on the surface like a cork. Even setting moorings. Everybody thinks concrete is great for a mooring because its "so heavy" A m3 of dry concrete weighs almost 2.5 tonne. Problem is it displaces about 1 tonne of water, And it is massive for its weight so it also provides a huge resistance to water currents further undermining its properties as a mooring. A steel plate of maybe 3-400 kg flat on the bottom is far superior to a huge block of concrete.
> I could list more that I have personally encountered, and there are dozens more I have heard about, but, its just comes back to people in offices unwilling to listen to experience on the ground.



As your diving operations appear to be in Australia, could it be that you have been inflicted with the new generation of Australian university trained and dummed down students? Plenty of credentials and no common sense.
I would more put my faith in a trade trained person who has worked his way up in the appropriate industry in conjunction with technical training.

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## Workshopshed

I can recommend the NASA book "Breaking the mishap chain" which looks at why disasters happen. You should be able to down load it from the NASA site.

----------


## Fast Fergie

> I would more put my faith in a trade trained person who has worked his way up in the appropriate industry in conjunction with technical training.



Interesting that in the construction game in Ireland they are once again more interested in a trade background to run building sites. They were using engineers, as someone got it into their head that as these guys were uni trained, they must know better than the tradesman who made their way up the ladder.
After a lot of major and costly mistakes over several years, the industry had the common sense to go back to the old way.

Common sense! Not so common these days.

----------

PJs (Oct 29, 2018),

Toolmaker51 (Jul 5, 2018)

----------


## Jon

The Mars Climate Orbiter was not the only ship to wreck due to a measurement system error during construction.

The _Vasa_ was a 64-gun Swedish warship that sank on its maiden voyage in 1628. It was raised largely intact in 1961 and restored. It's now displayed in the Vasa Museum in Stockholm, Sweden. One of the reasons it was thought to sink was the use of different measurement systems by the ship's carpenters.




> No wonder the ship tipped to the port side when the winds hit. But why was the ship so lopsided? While examining the ship, *Hocker discovered four rulers the workmen had used. Those rulers were based on different standards of measurement at the time*. Two were in Swedish feet, which were divided into twelve inches. The other two were in Amsterdam feet, which had eleven inches in a foot. So each carpenter had used his own system of measurement.



Click on each image for the fullsize:








More:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasa_(...ses_of_sinking
https://www.pri.org/stories/2012-02-...dish-shipwreck

----------

baja (Apr 9, 2019),

high-side (Feb 23, 2019),

Philip Davies (Feb 21, 2019),

Scotsman Hosie (Feb 21, 2019),

volodar (Apr 9, 2019)

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## mklotz

Eleven inches to a foot! And here I thought that the inferial subdivision was the dumbest measurement subdivision ever devised. Was polydactylism common among the Dutch back then?

----------

cmarlow (Feb 21, 2019),

volodar (Apr 9, 2019)

----------


## Philip Davies

I do not believe the Vasa was constructed by two teams, one from Sweden and the other from Amsterdam! Under one master shipwright, of course it would not have been lopsided! The presence on board of two different rules simply means that the carpenters on board were from both countries. This would have been the case if a Russian ship or French had also had Dutch carpenters as well. The Vasa capsized because it was top heavy. This had been established before its maiden voyage!

Although the Amsterdam foot had eleven inches, measuring 28.3133 cm, an extra inch would make a 12 inch foot of 30.88 cm. The closely associated Rhineland foot is 31.38cm. The Swedish foot is 29.69cm, I have learned.
I have never heard of an 11 inch foot before, though I do not doubt its historical fact.

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## mklotz

One would think that a group of big time traders like the Hanseatic League would appreciate the wisdom of agreeing on a common measurement system (with non-prime-number divisions). So says someone living in a major trading nation that has yet to put the metric system into common use.

This is a problem that dates back to the pyramids. There's a temple on the Nile island of Elephantine with an inscription documenting the various lengths of the cubit then in use. Apparently stupidity is as old as civilization.

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volodar (Apr 11, 2019)

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## hemmjo

> Snip..... Apparently stupidity is as old as civilization.



Only because we "civilized" people are the only ones who have been "smart" enough to record things so future generations can talk about how foolish we have been.



image from the site below, with some interesting thoughts and quotes on the subject..

https://www.age-of-the-sage.org/phil...m_history.html

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NortonDommi (Mar 2, 2019),

Scotsman Hosie (Apr 9, 2019),

volodar (Apr 9, 2019)

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## cmarlow

Carpenters are often short of a complete handful by a digit or two.
(Old carpenter here)
I doubt if the shipwrights got the measurements that far off. Lofting is the process of making full sized drawings to lay out the parts of the hull. The frames would have all been lofted and the bents would have been bent to the same lofting. Even if there were different measuring systems most tradesmen understand how to convert from one system to the other and there would have been somebody in charge of making sure everything fitted, who probably had both sets of rulers in his tool kit.

I would only consider this idea of the shipwrights building a wonky ship if the actual measurements of the ship showed it to be very wonky. The Vasa left port with the lower gun ports open. If the ship was caught by a sudden wind it might have been blown down enough for the sea to flood the lower decks. The Vasa would not have been the first ship lost to sudden winds. Nor was it the last. Even recently square rigged tall ships have been caught at sea by microburst wind and sank because they were blown down with ports and deck hatches open.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...rticle1366514/

and the Concordia was a much better balanced ship than the Vasa was.

----------


## hemmjo

> snip...and the Concordia was a much better balanced ship than the Vasa was.



Perhaps those people responsible for naming ships should take note of these two incidents at sea?? There is some difference of opinion in regard to cause for the loss of one, the other was clearly negligence, none the less ships were lost.

Costa Concordia, 13 January 2012



Concordia, 17 February 2010

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cmarlow (Feb 22, 2019)

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## Jon

The Gimli Glider incident, in which a 767 ran out of fuel because, upon refueling, 22,300 pounds of fuel was mistaken for 22,300 kilograms. The crew was able to glide the plane down to a safe landing on a racing track.




> Instead of taking on the 20,088 litres of additional fuel that they required, they instead took on only 4,917 litres. The use of the incorrect conversion factor led to a total fuel load of only 22,300 pounds (10,100 kg) rather than the 22,300 kilograms that was needed.





More: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gimli_Glider

----------

Drew1966 (Apr 8, 2019),

Scotsman Hosie (Apr 9, 2019),

Seedtick (Apr 8, 2019),

volodar (Apr 11, 2019)

----------


## mklotz

Canada and the USA are both guilty of attempting to use both systems (metric and inferial) in parallel. It's a sure recipe for disaster as incidents like the Mars orbiter and the Gimli glider prove. 

Perhaps once enough people have been killed by this insane practice, this stupidity will be abandoned and there will be a mandatory use of only the metric system.

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Drew1966 (Apr 8, 2019),

Scotsman Hosie (Apr 9, 2019),

Tonyg (Apr 8, 2019),

volodar (Apr 9, 2019)

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## Drew1966

It really would be so much safer if the few remaining countries would join the rest of the world in using the metric system.

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mklotz (Apr 14, 2019),

volodar (Apr 11, 2019)

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## Tonyg

I could not agree more.

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mklotz (Apr 14, 2019)

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## volodar

¨Eleven inches to a foot!¨

Not only that. The feet and inches themselves might have been different. No worse than different gallon sizes plus several different types of ounces in both Canada and US. Inferial indeed. Hopeless.

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mklotz (Apr 14, 2019)

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## Jon

American measurement standards are a rare issue where people are screaming for more government regulation. But they won't do it.

The catastrophic measurement confusion incidents certainly make the news. But we never hear about all of the other issues that resulted in lost productivity.

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## tonyfoale

<<Instead of taking on the 20,088 litres of additional fuel that they required, they instead took on only 4,917 litres. The use of the incorrect conversion factor led to a total fuel load of only 22,300 pounds (10,100 kg) rather than the 22,300 kilograms that was needed.>>

This makes no sense. the volume ratio is 20088/4917 = 4.1 but the mass ratio is 2.2
Therefore if 20088 l is what was needed then a mass units error would mean that they took on 20088/2.2 = 9130 l not 4917.
The ratio of imperial gallon to litres is 4.54 and the US gallon to litres is 3.79, the quoted volume ratio of 4.1 sits neatly between these two so it is much more likely that it was a gallons to litres error rather than a lbs to kg issue. Maybe a mid-Atlantic conversion factor was used.

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## tonyfoale

> American measurement standards are a rare issue where people are screaming for more government regulation. But they won't do it.
> 
> The catastrophic measurement confusion incidents certainly make the news. But we never hear about all of the other issues that resulted in lost productivity.



The use of different measurement systems creates more than enough errors but it is the way in which the imperial system is commonly misused that is responsible for arguably more mistakes.

In the metric system in any technical sphere it is almost universal to use kg for mass and newtons for force. In which case F=ma and a=F/m. Easy, simple, consistent and correct. It will only be supermarkets and similar establishments that use kg for both.

Users of the imperial system most often use lb and lbf for mass and force. Which is not a consistent pair of units. In which case F=ma/g and a=Fg/m. So practicioners of this nonsense are always faced with the question of "do I need to add g, if so is it part of the numerator or denominator"? Many errors have been caused by this confusion. This is not a problem of the imperial system (much though I hate it) rather it is a problem of MISUSE of the system. Used correctly lb is the unit of mass and the poundal is the correct and consistent unit of force. I do not recall ever seeing engineering calculations that used the poundal as they should. 
In the aircraft industry it is common to use lbf for force and slugs for mass. At least these units are consistent and F=ma and a=F/m.

I recently saw an engineering professor from an American university use units which he called weight density. WHAT? To use the famous words of John McEnroe "YOU CAN NOT BE SERIOUS".
Density is defined as mass/volume. Using weight(force)/volume requires the use of g again. No wonder errors are made when students are subject to such error prone idiocy.

Rant over for now, but you never know when the button will be pressed again.

PS. for those unfamiliar with poundals and slugs.
1 lbf = 32.17 poundals
1 slug = 32.17 lb.

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Jon (Apr 10, 2019),

MeJasonT (Apr 14, 2019)

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## MeJasonT

Drew,
It would be better if the rest of the world adopted Imperial measurements.
Speaking as an Englishman who uses both, Is it not more accurate to have a measurement with increments of a thou than a rounding of to a fraction of a mm.
I guess it depends on which you use as to weather you think its more accurate - they are both accurate if used properly. But still something i've often pondered knowing damn well it made no bloody difference. The good news is the vast majority of machine tools and feed/speeds are still in Imperial measurements.

There was a guy over here in Newcastle UK who kept selling in pounds to his customers and the council took him to court for breaches in wights and measures, they hounded the poor guy - He unfortunately committed suicide as a result of the burden of court costs and loss of business as a result of being shut down.

Funny how you can still buy a pint of beer or milk and road signs and car speed's are still in MPH. One day someone will get a medal off the queen for switching to use both measurements as an indication of our multi national trade. Who ever said the EU were controlling ?

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## MeJasonT

I can remember going to Cheltnam with my stick to measure a horse so all of us in the North knew how big 13 hands was. lol. but that's what they did.
Again horses are still measured in Hands not mm. Someone has a lot to answer for. They haven't even finished the conversion to Metric yet - some 40+ years.
is 40 years not an imperial time scale should it not be in Kmh with regards to light years or speed of light such as in the transmission of light through fibre optics and even time itself as fibre optics/laser are now used to make the clock in Grenwich London more accurate.

https://www.rmg.co.uk/discover/behin...reenwich-laser

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## piloon

> It really would be so much safer if the few remaining countries would join the rest of the world in using the metric system.



Under Clinton the US was about to go metric but he decided that it would damage the economy at that time, meanwhile to follow in the Clinton US metrication policy Canada went ahead but that B4 Clinton backed off.

THe intent was to make US products more acceptable to the EU and Asian markets thus improving trade balances. 

Consequently Canada lives with a crossover system.
Food products sport $/kilo as well as $/lb etc.
We don't do MPG but liters per 100 KMS
Getting correct 2 cycle oil/gas mixtures is a nightmare.
Building materials is another Zoo, studs etc are still in inch/foot but other products are totally metric.
Sheeting remains 4 x 8 with roofing tiles now metric.

The only metric change I liked was calculating for stair risers.

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## Drew1966

So which imperial system should we use then? English or American?

----------

12bolts (Apr 15, 2019),

MeJasonT (Apr 15, 2019)

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## mklotz

> So which imperial system should we use then? English or American?



For maximum confusion, both. And while you're at it, do all your calculations using Roman numerals and Egyptian fractions.

----------

Drew1966 (Apr 14, 2019),

MeJasonT (Apr 15, 2019),

tonyfoale (Apr 15, 2019),

Tonyg (Apr 14, 2019),

Toolmaker51 (Apr 14, 2019)

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## Toolmaker51

Where then do we quench our thirst for lowly but almighty zero's?

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## MeJasonT

Yep I agree - both
its worked brilliantly for me over the last 20907248182351.028089724211549023 Kmh or 48 years if you want to be technical.
I often measure steel with mixed metric and imperial measurements sometime its easier to see an exact mark at 4 inch's than give an approximate mm measurement.
I do think the American system has more merit than the old English measurements like Whitworth etc. Perhaps where we are getting it wrong is trying to standardise. Old aircraft flew and new ones fail due to errors ? Just ignore that small section of aviation history where the comets kept falling out of the sky - funny they still do, the RAF has lost a few in the last 20 years. (otherwise known as Nimrod or comet mk4).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Comet

And these are the brand new ones we scrapped with zero hours on the clock (there you go toolmaker a zero for you).
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/0...rod_scrappage/

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## MeJasonT

It gets worse we we trust computers which are really bad at math. And yet the disasters are not just for home users.
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/0...ndows_crashes/

Sort of off topic but still on if you get my drift is this artical i came across on the same search for comet info

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/1...ghty_language/

Have i read this correctly googles filtering server searched its own database and shut itself down ?
Are they getting fed up of our searches containing f-ing google this that or the other when their service is less than perfect.

We have gone full circle to the early space crashes that involved the dreaded missing jump returns in code leading to code stalling and the inevitable crash.

When are programmers going to stop being narcissists and admit they are not perfect.
we will all suffer the day they remove the OFF switch.

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## Tonyg

> It gets worse we we trust computers which are really bad at math. And yet the disasters are not just for home users.
> https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/0...ndows_crashes/



Computers are rarely bad at mathematical computations, however, programmers often are.

----------

MeJasonT (Apr 15, 2019)

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## MeJasonT

A rant about PC reliability.

Its a shame that they are only able to do addition and subtraction to achieve complex computations and are truncated by there limited word length of bits, as for random numbers even using monte carlo is realistically beyond the capability of a PC to truly generate a random number. The fact they are cyclic is also hindrance.
And yet we argue the far end of a fart that computers are reliable and the operators/programmers are to blame. Programmers are to blame, they are trying to convince us we need to have our every whim catered for by machines. If you build something really reliable and it makes loads of money upgrade it to a new one so the old reliable one becomes obsolete so you can sell an unfinished glitchy unreliable one.
Its a pain in the bum hole that our governments have decided our whole life will be online to acquire benefits, pay bills, apply for licences etc and yet the reliability of the whole infrastructure is questionable at best.

----------


## Drew1966

> Yep I agree - both
> its worked brilliantly for me over the last 20907248182351.028089724211549023 Kmh or 48 years if you want to be technical.
> I often measure steel with mixed metric and imperial measurements sometime its easier to see an exact mark at 4 inch's than give an approximate mm measurement.
> I do think the American system has more merit than the old English measurements like Whitworth etc. Perhaps where we are getting it wrong is trying to standardise. Old aircraft flew and new ones fail due to errors ? Just ignore that small section of aviation history where the comets kept falling out of the sky - funny they still do, the RAF has lost a few in the last 20 years. (otherwise known as Nimrod or comet mk4).
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Comet
> 
> And these are the brand new ones we scrapped with zero hours on the clock (there you go toolmaker a zero for you).
> https://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/0...rod_scrappage/



I assume from this that you have only looked at distances in American Imperial measures. The liquid volumes are about 20% smaller than the English equivalents. This all goes back to the American Pint being 16 ounces and the original English pint being 20 ounces. It really would be simpler if everyone used the Metric system. Powers of ten for multipliers.

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MeJasonT (Apr 15, 2019),

volodar (Apr 15, 2019)

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## MeJasonT

I have now got to a point in life where i have decided to have the attitude of whatever floats the boat, 4oz such an insignificant figure.

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## tonyfoale

> It really would be simpler if everyone used the Metric system. Powers of ten for multipliers.



Then we would not be able to use those lovely rods, poles and perches. We would have to keep chains of course, how else could you lay out a cricket pitch? One could not expect the MCC to go metric, _just not cricket old boy._
I was always aware of the time spent (wasted) on learning £ s p arithmetic in school. At least the Americans have had the good sense to always use decimal currency, so it seems strange that most are resistant to the idea of decimal measurements in general. 
Apart from the decimal nature of the ISO metric system the thing that I like the best is the consistency of the units. If you forget what certain derived units are you only have to use the base units of kg, m and sec to get reminded.

What is a newton - we know it is a force and as F=ma a N must be kg.m/sec^2 
What is a joule - it is work so it has to be force x distance which is Nm. So 1 joule = 1 Nm
What is a watt - it is power so it has to be work/time which is joule/sec or Nm/sec So 1 watt = 1 joule/sec = 1 Nm/sec
What is a pascal - it is pressure so it has to be force/area which is N/m^2 So 1 pascal = 1 N/m^2

That is as simple as it gets. This consistency of the units reduces the chance of errors greatly.
Do not just think of the ISO metric system as being only a decimal system, it goes much further than that.

----------

Drew1966 (Apr 15, 2019),

MeJasonT (Apr 15, 2019),

volodar (Apr 15, 2019)

----------


## MeJasonT

I'm currently making a tripod stand for a garden sculpture/armillary one leg is 15 3/4 " and the other two are 40mm the circumference at the base is 7 3/4" and only one fathom and that is can anyone fathom out what the hell I'm supposed to be doing - just yards away from reality.

why is a Newton in metric anyways, isn't he pre decimalisation

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Toolmaker51 (Apr 15, 2019)

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## mklotz

> Apart from the decimal nature of the ISO metric system the thing that I like the best is the consistency of the units. If you forget what certain derived units are you only have to use the base units of kg, m and sec to get reminded.
> 
> What is a newton - we know it is a force and as F=ma a N must be kg.m/sec^2 
> What is a joule - it is work so it has to be force x distance which is Nm. So 1 joule = 1 Nm
> What is a watt - it is power so it has to be work/time which is joule/sec or Nm/sec So 1 watt = 1 joule/sec = 1 Nm/sec
> What is a pascal - it is pressure so it has to be force/area which is N/m^2 So 1 pascal = 1 N/m^2
> 
> That is as simple as it gets. This consistency of the units reduces the chance of errors greatly.



While the inferial system has such idiocies as "fluid-ounce" which is a measure of volume, not weight.




> Do not just think of the ISO metric system as being only a decimal system, it goes much further than that.



For more on that, folks can visit my essay...

http://www.homemadetools.net/forum/g...1486#post93973

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volodar (Apr 15, 2019)

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## tonyfoale

> For more on that, folks can visit my essay...
> 
> http://www.homemadetools.net/forum/g...1486#post93973



Marv,

I do not recall reading that previously but I see that I posted a comment there so I must have seen it.
That echos my thoughts exactly. Everyone here should read it.
I grew up with imperial measurements and non decimal currency. I had to wait for a change to decimal currency, that was decided by higher powers but once I left formal education I became a metric convert. That is the ISO metric system, metric land was not always so clear with different base units being used in different fields presumably dictated by the size of the things being measured. For example c,g,s and m,k,s systems. I have seen recent papers still using the c,g,s even a mixture of c,g,s and m,k,s - confusion guaranteed.

PS. A note for those unfamiliar with non-decimal British currency.
Instead of a large base unit like the $ and two decimal places to cater for smaller amounts, the British and Australian system had three units of currency.
Viz: Pounds (£), shillings (s) and pence(d). Yes pence was "d", "p" took over only when the UK went decimal. In addition pence was further divided to get the halfpence (often pronounced happ'ny) and the farthing.
The three units of money is not necessarily a problem, the problem (maybe stupidity is better) was the relationship between them
4 farthings to a penny
2 halfpence to a penny
12 pennies to a shilling
20 shillings to a pound

A totally disproportionate amount of time in arithmetic classes was spent on teaching currency addition, subtraction, multiplication and division.
Imagine ordering 37 milling cutters at £5 3s 8d ea. How long will it take you to calculate the total?
OK let's try to make it easier, surely 10 off instead of 37 is easier? Think so, try it.

----------

mklotz (Apr 15, 2019),

Tonyg (Apr 15, 2019),

Toolmaker51 (Apr 15, 2019),

volodar (Apr 15, 2019)

----------


## Tonyg

Just to add to the confusion ( 10 off milling cutters at £5 3s 8d ea) 49guineas 7s 8d

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MeJasonT (Apr 16, 2019),

volodar (Apr 15, 2019)

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## mklotz

Let's not forget:

Crown (5/-)
Half Crown (2/6d)
Florin (2/-)
Sixpence (6d)
Silver threepence (3d)

My ex and I visited England in the days before decimalization. She insisted on dragging me to the high-end stores where everything was priced in guineas. I had to ask one of the locals what a guinea was. He told me and I commented that I had never seen one of the bills. "Oh, they stopped minting them before Victoria was crowned" (1837). My first introduction to English monetary confusion. 

At first, I carefully checked my change every time I bought something. That required learning about crowns and half crowns, other puzzling denominations. I noticed that the change was often wrong. At first I thought they were just cheating foreigners but at least half the time the error was in my favor so I decided I wasn't the only person confused by such an idiotic money system; the natives were just as confused.

The 'd' for penny derives from the Latin "denarius", a silver coin of the Roman empire used by the English after the Roman occupation. It was simpler to weigh coins than count them and 240 denarius weighed a pound, 'libra' in Latin from which the '£' symbol derives.

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MeJasonT (Apr 16, 2019)

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## tonyfoale

> Just to add to the confusion ( 10 off milling cutters at £5 3s 8d ea) 49guineas 7s 8d



A gentleman would never mix guineas with s and d. A buyer of milling cutters would never use guineas. Please know your place in the class structure.

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drum365 (Apr 16, 2019)

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## tonyfoale

> Let's not forget:
> 
> Crown (5/-)
> Half Crown (2/6d)
> Florin (2/-)
> Sixpence (6d)
> Silver threepence (3d)



Crowns and Florins existed but were only in common use way back.

Threepence, you can do better than that - thruppence please.

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## MeJasonT

I don't have a clue what any of you are on about as i was a baby and didn't require coinage - felt almost regal not having to carry cash and have my servants pay for everything (otherwise known as parents). Oh happy days.

I now pay approximately 50% of my income to a bunch of bafoons in taxes

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## drum365

And then we've got pennies,* long tons, statute miles, nautical miles, swimming miles,** stone,*** rods, leagues, pecks, bushels, hands, blocks,**** shots, jiggers, ponies, drams, board feet, acre feet, cords, and RCHs.*****

And don't get me started on Whitworth nuts & bolts!

* nail sizes
** 1650 yards
*** yes, the plural of "stone" is "stone"
**** as a city distance
***** the smallest distance you can move a rip fence by tapping

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MeJasonT (Apr 16, 2019)

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## MeJasonT

don't forget sheafs and bushels

some sad person has to look up on wiki leaks what we are missing from our obscure list, i am that person
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...of_measurement

Its also nice to see the lack of dementia amongst us all

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drum365 (Apr 16, 2019)

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## olderdan

And then there were Gold Sovereigns, how could I forget those I had seven of them once handed down three generations. My X sold them behind my back.
On a lighter note I once overheard my two boys refer to me as Wallet.

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## mklotz

And then there are chains. An acre (the amount of land a man can plow in a day) is a chain wide and ten chains long. A chain is 66 feet long, a tenth of a furlong.

But wait, chains are composed of links. Some demented individual had heard of decimalization but didn't quite get the concept so he divided the chain into 100 links. This makes the link a super convenient 7.92 inches. Considering that math education back in that day was even worse than it is today, one would think they would have gone for something more integerial like say 66 links.

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## Tonyg

> A gentleman would never mix guineas with s and d. A buyer of milling cutters would never use guineas. Please know your place in the class structure.



You are so right Tony, just forgot my station for a while.

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## Tonyg

> And then we've got pennies,* long tons, statute miles, nautical miles, swimming miles,** stone,*** rods, leagues, pecks, bushels, hands, blocks,**** shots, jiggers, ponies, drams, board feet, acre feet, cords, and RCHs.*****
> 
> And don't get me started on Whitworth nuts & bolts!
> 
> * nail sizes
> ** 1650 yards
> *** yes, the plural of "stone" is "stone"
> **** as a city distance
> ***** the smallest distance you can move a rip fence by tapping



The stone (14lbs) is still commonly used in the UK when they discuss their body weight. Perhaps it makes them sound slimmer?

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## mklotz

> Crowns and Florins existed but were only in common use way back.



I was there in the mid-sixties and remember getting half crowns in change. This Wikipedia entry...

In the years just before decimalisation, the circulating British coins were the half crown (2/6, withdrawn 1 January 1970), two shillings or florin (2/-), shilling (1/-), sixpence (6d), threepence (3d), penny (1d) and halfpenny (​1⁄2d). The farthing (​1⁄4d) had been withdrawn in 1960. There was also the Crown (5/-), which was, and still is legal tender, worth 25p, but normally did not circulate. 

says they weren't withdrawn until 1970. I seem to remember crowns as well in the change I brought home but can't verify since that was stolen years ago.

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## mklotz

> The stone (14lbs) is still commonly used in the UK when they discuss their body weight. Perhaps it makes them sound slimmer?



The stone is also the reason the British hundredweight (cwt) weighs a surprising 112 pounds (8 stone).

Anvils used to be stamped with three digits, eg. ABC, to denote their weight

A = hundredweights
B = quarters cwt (28 pounds)
C = pounds

so, instead of three digits denoting weight in pounds, they made you work for it. This system was probably created by a frustrated arithmetic teacher.

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Tonyg (Apr 16, 2019)

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## Tonyg

Thank you for this post Jon, it certainly grew legs. 
However it is sad that in this relatively advanced world that we now live in we still can not agree on one measurement system.

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## tonyfoale

> And then there are chains. An acre (the amount of land a man can plow in a day) is a chain wide and ten chains long. A chain is 66 feet long, a tenth of a furlong.



I mentioned before that we have to keep chains. Otherwise we would have to stop playing cricket.

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## Jon

Asimov did a good job on this topic in _Realm of Measure_.

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## tonyfoale

> I was there in the mid-sixties and remember getting half crowns in change.



Yes half crowns were very common, it was crowns that I said existed but were not in common use. Crowns would be prized and given to the children of well off families for Xmas and birthdays. As my family was not in that class I had to settle for half crowns as very special presents. Sometimes people would put a half crown in a Xmas pudding but a few thrup'ny bits would be more common.

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## 12bolts

For those not sure why we would bother to measure insects in chains.



> ....Otherwise we would have to stop playing cricket.



Cricket, explained
You have 2 sides, 1 out in the field; and 1 in.
Each man thats in the in side, goes out, until hes out and then he comes in, and the next man goes in until hes out.
When the in side have all gone in and out, the side that was out comes in, and the side thats been in and got out, goes out and tries to the side coming in, out.
Sometimes you even get a man still in, and not out.
When both sides have been in and out, including the not outs, thats the end of the game

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## Tonyg

> Yes half crowns were very common, it was crowns that I said existed but were not in common use. Crowns would be prized and given to the children of well off families for Xmas and birthdays. As my family was not in that class I had to settle for half crowns as very special presents. Sometimes people would put a half crown in a Xmas pudding but a few thrup'ny bits would be more common.



I remember having coins in Christmas pudding - normally sixpences (half-a-bob) and thrup'ny bits (tickey). I still have some of the tickeys (pre 1960) which are made of silver.

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## olderdan

> For those not sure why we would bother to measure insects in chains.
> 
> Cricket, explained
> You have 2 sides, 1 out in the field; and 1 in.
> Each man thats in the in side, goes out, until hes out and then he comes in, and the next man goes in until hes out.
> When the in side have all gone in and out, the side that was out comes in, and the side thats been in and got out, goes out and tries to the side coming in, out.
> Sometimes you even get a man still in, and not out.
> When both sides have been in and out, including the not outs, thats the end of the game




That is amusing and just about sums up my understanding of the game of cricket but then I have never been interested in any sport that is just based on a ball.
However the scene of cricket played on a village green on a summer afternoon is a pleasing sight, so british don't you know.

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## mklotz

Robin Williams had a more compact definition of the sport, "Cricket is baseball on valium." Considering that baseball is highly compacted tedium, that's quite an insult.

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volodar (Apr 17, 2019)

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## Frank S

> Robin Williams had a more compact definition of the sport, "Cricket is baseball on valium." Considering that baseball is highly compacted tedium, that's quite an insult.



I don't know about cricket being baseball on valium, I've been to a lot of professional baseball games and I found that the only reason the huge pipe organ plays so loudly is to keep you awake while the catcher plays finger talk and the pitcher has to stare as the guys junk and nod or shake his head.

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volodar (Apr 17, 2019)

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