# Off-Topic >  The lack of good management - not a skills shortage

## MeJasonT

i wrote this a couple of years ago and sent it to press and politicians funny thing is no one wanted to respond
It was titled - The decline of British Engineering and manufacturing in the 21st Century, although based on the situation in the uk is very relevant to engineering in both the US and the UK

The skills shortage saga

Nobody can deny that the trade training test piece taught us skills we will never forget; firstly machines are better than doing things by hand for those of us who cant be arsed. But secondly how many of us have had to cut out weird shapes using a hacksaw, chisel and files since. They say there is a skills shortage amongst today's young engineers and the reason is that unfortunately universities are really poor at teaching bench work. I don't know of any of these kids who have had to endure the pain of making a test piece by hand.



Courtesy of Tom rockwells post on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater


Firstly we need a clearer definition of what an engineer is.
If I work on a farm, Im a farmer. If I work in engineering, well that depends are you a graduate then ok you can join the club. If you dont then I suppose youre a technician.

Ok seems clear, so a technician is anyone else aged between 18 -85 either skilled or un skilled and with or without experience. Clear as mud.

I propose better accreditation for engineers.
Firstly like farming, if you work in the field of engineering you are an engineer.
But failing that being accepted as normal by the EU boys club, we need a military style ranking system or simply go back to the old system:-

Apprentice
Craftsman
Technician 

At this point it starts to get vague, if ive been a technician for twenty years what is my progression if Im not a graduate. (Dont say get a degree, skilled people tend to be animal like and will throw hammers in response to such arrogant statements.)

Signing up for a degree at forty is a pointless exercise, say it takes five years to obtain the degree  so you are now 45. You apply for a position with a company only to find the whippet snappers are cheaper and have at least 10 years experience now. So I can now look forward to a forced early retirement as a fully qualified engineer. 

The question then becomes do we really need such highly qualified individuals for less academic positions. As I see it the major problem with the NHS recruiting nurses at this moment in time is the requirement of nurses to have a degree, surely a good bedside manner and the ability to deal with a patients physical need is all that is required. There will no doubt be the argument that now they are required to do more technical and challenging aspects of the job such as dispensing drugs.
Forgive me if Im wrong but care workers can dispense drugs and they tend not to be graduates or expected to be. Neither the nurse nor the care worker are pharmacists nor are they allowed writing prescriptions. A care worker may also do exactly the same daily tasks as a nurse without qualification. As I understand it there are now clinical nurses who assist in operations and perform minor surgery. Fine make that a position and put the entry level back to no degree required for entry into this role.

The qualification needs to fit the roll, engineering is operating in a similar way to that of the nurse where employers are asking for qualification that far outweighs that necessary for the position, the UK has made a huge mistake in how the workforce is constructed, things really do need to change. Employers/companies cant complain about the lack of skills and physically prevent half the workforce from gaining employment. If it was down to sex or race all hell would break loose but effectively making half the population unemployable is acceptable.

The use of agencies for recruitment is simply adding to the poor recruitment of skilled craftspeople. Where an employer sends the job requirement to an agency, they stipulate the exact credentials that the candidate must have. At this stage is most likely includes the requirement for the applicant to be a graduate. It would appear Employers fail to understand the difference between engineers and academics when it comes to the recognition of skills. When the recruiter receives the job posting they will then attempt to fit would be applicants against a formula, as graduates are taught the same subject in the same manner they present themselves in a similar way, this inevitably results in them appearing to be a perfect match for the recruiters formula. The independent skilled craftsperson will have a vast array of skills and will appear dissimilar to others and will not fit the recruiters formula. You also fall short of recruiting the best candidate as recruiters on the whole will have little knowledge of your business and even less of the applicants skill set. Therefore it goes without saying that if you are looking for a needle in a haystack perhaps the recruiters formula method is not the best. The new job application search software available is another hindrance to recruiting skilled people; this software usually likes to see multiple uses of key words. If I mention my ability to program PLCs on my CV I would consider that to be sufficient and would not presume the reader to be and idiot and explain how I might do that simply to gain more words for an application search tool. The software also works against skilled people in that the accumulation of skills can result in quite a lengthy CV.

From an applicants point of view being analysed by a recruiter for a position for a company who wishes to distance themselves from you is very impersonal, skilled crafts people tend to be highly creative and with it slightly highly strung. If you wish to distance yourself from a potential applicant then its going to be a huge shock when you finally meet. Is this really the best way of selecting the best people for your business.


There becomes a point when you are paying no better than the minimum wage and expecting so much that skilled people stop wanting to be in engineering as is the case. If you also consider that the large manufacturing plants have gone and the lean business models of the 80s and 90s have meant a big reduction in labour in order to maximise profits. Then there are not the positions available for skilled people to apply for.

How many recruiters have provided feedback and encouragement to unsuccessful applicants in order to point them in the direction of improvement and retain them in the labour pool for future recruitment by themselves or others.

The professional organisations such as the IIE etc have done the profession a great injustice, it is their belief, mantra if you will that a professional working in the engineering field must be an academic and possess a degree. Your skilled craftsman will not be an academic nor could he/she possibly gain a degree as the various skill sets obtained by years of experience are not taught at university and if they were it would be even more unlikely to gain all the required skills at once .
The professional organisations are also failing to promote engineers, yes the promote engineering by showing off the big companies and the high standards they achieve  you would hope so they have the money.
But ignoring the skills and ability of lesser mortals in the profession has led to these organisations becoming elitist.

Another serious issue is skilled craftspeople dont have a voice, as industry and society and professional bodies like the IIE have favoured the academics over the last twenty years, craftspeople have been unable to get noticed. What has happened has been Dickensian, the professional bodies have failed to promote or recognise skills and effectively belittled those working with their hands.

Some would argue that with the robot revolution there will be no need for manual workers (these are actually skilled workers, we are called manual because we use our hands and get dirty). The industry wont get very far without those who assemble the robots and those who will fix them when engineers are all glued to a chair.

I have a number of friends who have found themselves in a similar position to myself, all of us have achieved 30 years + in engineering and have acquired a multitude of skills along the way.  The one thing we all have in common not including our age is that we came from a generation who didnt go to university so not one of us has a degree.
D. ended his career at the point of being an engineering manager being responsible and hands on for the repair of machinery and the companies IT.
N. Ex Royal Navy, worked for many years as an offshore submersible professional
P. Ex RAF promised the earth at a job interview and found the company failed in all aspects of their promises and left totally disillusioned.
Myself Ex Royal Navy and worked as a civilian for the RAF, high speed food manufacturing, working offshore with submersibles, R&D for various clients and now totally disillusioned with engineering.

Thats four friends just off the top of my head who feel the way we are treated is horrendous and have walked away from the industry, I have colleagues who have taken early retirement from being electricians due to the governments new rules regarding competency and the additional expense of part P plus the additional annual charge of becoming the member of an organisation and the now almost yearly study and re qualification on the latest addition to the wiring regs. The fee costing in excess of £4000 for a lone trader certainly made an impact into their profits.
Again of the three individuals Im referring to, not one has a degree.

A picture should be starting to emerge here that skills are being lost due to ignorance of both employers and the organisations who have managed to twist the arms of government officials in order to promote their elitist engineering profile.

Girls in engineering, yes we should employ more girls into engineering, unfortunately there are issues which are causing a serious imbalance to the industry. Girls are encouraged in with assistance to gain qualification (ie a degree) and have their fees paid. This is sexist and probably illegal if it were challenged in the courts, why should males be treated differently and have to pay their own way through university to achieve the same position. The ladies tend to choose engineering roles which put them at the top of the industry usually in an office environment, it has been my experience that most girls I have worked alongside are not involved or not teamed up with the men performing mundane and dirty work. There has been the odd oily black angel impressing the Neanderthals amongst us  but I stress few. 
I have only been aware of ten ladies becoming engineers whom did not have a degree and they were the first WRENs to serve on board HMS Brilliant as marine engineering mechanics for the Royal Navy.

If we look back at how many women were working in engineering/manufacturing between 1939 -1945, there was no shortage, ok the men were off fighting wars but the women volunteered to fill those roles. The end of the war created a few situations where a few women who wanted to remain in engineering were made redundant, but the vast majority went home to start families as they were prevented from doing so during wartime with their partners away at war. The profession has never prevented women form working as engineers more often they have chosen predominantly female roles. Its strange that there is still an obsession to have more women in engineering but its almost getting to the point of forcing them into it. Whether its a man or a woman they have to want to be engineers and the owness is actually on employers and the industry to make engineering look enticing.
There will certainly be more women on the frontline in the next war as many men have become seriously disillusioned with the way they have been treated after serving the country, if we think recruitment of engineers is hard wait until we try and convince soldiers who were laid off after serving in the gulf to sign up again.

If I compare myself to a colleague who is a graduate of engineering, the guy is very young and naïve and seriously lacking in any knowledge of engineering, unfortunately he had to be shown everything. I saw one of his assignment question sheets once; it was identical to one I had on the HND. When I left school and entered the workplace I could strip down cars and already had quite a good understanding of Electrics and Electronics, I had a thirst for knowledge and didnt waste all of my time on computer games or texting. I tried to gain a position with a company in the North East which offered 3rd line support to the MOD, I was told just they had taken on a trainee/graduate and I would need to have similar qualifications to be considered. I spoke to the friend I had originally asked about a position how the guy was getting on. I was informed he had parted company with the company, without saying too much an example was given that he had been asked to devise a system where a detection circuit would be employed to dial up a lost communications connection between two dedicated terminals. After eight months he had failed to produce any work or research for even a preliminary design idea.

So with the aim of comparison on a 1:1 basis who should an employer be considering in order to improve his companies skill base, it appears to be self-evident that the insistence of graduates for all current vacancies is leading to the dramatic decline of skilled people working within the industry.

This also has a knock on effect with the creativity and ingenuity required by the industry to produce new products and to a lesser degree the research into product development. I accept that product development requires the mathematicians and boffins to produce the finite elements of a design but the practical experience of skilled people is what makes the difference between a first to production based project and a forever reworked design idea. Say for example the design office come out with a design for a new car, the design is passed down to manufacturing and one of the craftsmen says that wont work. The usual attitude is well we are professionals with titles and qualifications what do you know, its a vehicle with four wheels and everything you would expect from a car  whats wrong with it. There will be the cheesiest grin on the craftsmans face as he tells you the wheels are too close together and when you brake the car will tip onto its bumper.

Ok the story is far out there but the point remains, in your business how many times have you had the engineers and craftsmen on the shop floor send drawings back upstairs for blindingly obvious errors. Even minor errors that have simply been missed. It takes a team to operate a business and you are only as successful as the team, if you remove key players from the team then you are expecting to succeed with a deficiency. A football analogy would be trying to win an FA cup final with only 10 players, you would most certainly hope that either of the missing two players wasnt the goalie. You could argue in your lean team you didnt need the goalie as most of the action is in the mid field and only occasionally is the goalie required. Edging your bets on not requiring skilled crafts people is like playing without your goalie, thats a huge gamble.

What else do skilled craftsmen offer that the boffins dont, well they are independent thinkers, they are not tied to a regimented parrot fashioned way of learning. If a university delivers a fresh new student you can guarantee that the other 30 members of his class were given the same material to learn showed the same examples and educated by the same profession with his own eccentric and aristocratic idiotisms. How many years has he been lecturing  10 for eg. You the employer have a gene pool of 300 students from a local university over a ten year period whos education is almost a clone of each other. For years now industry has expected to thrive and maximise its profits whilst remaining stagnant and blinkered in its belief it had the best staff as they were all equally highly educated. Educated yes, skilled no.

Being at brunt of this so called skills shortage im discouraged by the implication that im a lesser individual as a result of not having a degree, to be honest I like many feel that when someone is blowing their own trumpet and acting the big I am, I just let them get on with it. You wont employ skilled crafts people because you dont want them but you want their skills

There is now a huge skills gap, twenty years to be exact. Thats the point at which industry decided that it would only employ graduates as most youngsters were now encouraged to go to university. Apprenticeship schemes were a thing of the past and college places for engineering lacked investment and were now in decline. Nothing was done to reset the balance until recently, the major sticking point now is the students who would have become craftsmen were 18 - 20 years old. As they were not academic its unlikely they would attend university, however they will still have gained skills in the workplace. Now nearing 40 years old and hearing of a skills shortage they are still undesirables, this comes down to two reasons, 1. The march of change for the craftsman is currently very slow. 2. He/she is now too old to employ which is complicated by the requirement of a mans wage (not being sexist, ok bread winners wage). At 40 years old one is likely to have a mortgage, kids, married. The minimum wage is not going to meet their families requirements.

Having gained skills in low paid employment and having twenty plus years experience, why would a skilled craftsperson wish to work for minimum wages. If you start a graduate on £26,000 with no experience and no skills and then expect a 40 year old to work for £17,000 then Im afraid there is your skills shortage. If the industry is not prepared to respect and reward skills then Britains industry will end up in the dark ages.



Another factor regarding poor recruitment of skilled workers is staff retention, it may seem strange to discuss holding onto staff as a reason for not being able to recruit staff. As you can imagine many out of work or despondent workers may feel let down by employers in the past, if you wish to recruit a skilled person then surely your job posting should be welcoming and inclusive. If for example you make the requirements sound unobtainable, only a basic remuneration package and for the minimum wage. Say you next expect flexibility and Saturdays as required, you could also request changes to working hours at short notice then finish off by saying other duties as required. If it sounds like a reasonable job advert then ask your wife/husband if they would accept a job with that description, I can assure you I would receive violence for thinking such meanness and stupidity. 
Thats 80% of job adverts


Its not so long ago that job ads used to read,
We are looking for someone aged between 20 and 30 years of age with a degree and ten years experience. Ill explain why this is wrong on so many levels. A degree takes four years + ten years experience = aged 34.

People are prepared to work for low wages but dont wish to feel they are being held in Guantanamo. 

The Oil giant BP installed a coffee bar in one of their office buildings, staff were able to go up to the bar at any time during the day and take a coffee break (drinks could be taken back to your desk also) because it gave the impression of a more relaxed working environment, workers started to spend more time at work. The office productivity also increased, even sickness reduced. The point being it doesnt take much to show respect and appreciation to get what you want.

If a disrespected, disillusioned worker who is sick of not being able to make ends meet and support their family, who is fed up of low paid job prospects looks at the advert above, then the employer doesnt have a cat in hells chance of obtaining the skilled workers required.

Jams  just about managing
The governments description of the working class, well!
The pay band was £17,000 - £34,000, its sad to think that an entire county in the North of England are all JAMS, The wages have remained stagnant for 12 years and the sign of a pay rise is a national increase in the minimum wage.
When trying to understand the effects on poor recruitment and retention of skilled workers you must also consider that low wages and high expectations are incendiary to your recruitment ambitions.



Do employers really understand the level of qualifications?
I have been at interviews where my HND was considered insufficient and had I gained an ONC I would have been considered for the position. Unfortunately I never stayed the full duration of the interview, having politely agreed and left the office. Its great playing god on an interview panel but if you wish to recruit a valuable asset for your company, is it not worth some effort. Its even more Ludacris when a company with a HR department uses agencies to recruit.

Having trawled the internet looking for reference to support projects Ive been working on as a hobby I have been surprised how similar my designs and creations have been to online professional thesis written towards final submission towards a degree. It has made me realise that I have the potential of writing approximately 10 thesis a year. This has led to in-depth reasoning as to whether perhaps perusing a degree is not such a bad idea. If as a skilled person one possesses such ability and expertise then surely that would be very desirable to employers in industry. Having had numerous discussions on online forums its obvious that many Hobbyists and crafts people are capable of producing fantastic products and solutions on their own initiative. It evident that many skilled individuals are there for the taking but employers are failing to tap into the resources. For example there are many people out there who have built their own 3D printer, If they have actually handcrafted every single part themselves and assembled the full machine instead of buying and assembling a kit, then surely this would be a remarkably skilled individual. There are guys who are working on 3D scanners, coordinate measuring machines, Bathometric sensors, CNC plasma and milling machines. The skills are most definitely out there.

The future of universities /Retraining opportunities
Will universities actually enjoy their current financial success in the future, I think not. Many businesses are considering bringing training back in-house

Cost
Returning as an adult  16 year wipe out
Apprenticeships + entry age limits
In house graduate programs + entry age limits

Logical thinking behind recruiting your first employee
Being a keen follower of John Saunders on NYCCNC on YouTube I was inspired to mention him as part of this analysis into the recruitment shortage of skilled workers.
John had no engineering qualifications and lived in an apartment block in New York, he bought himself a milling machine and taught himself machining, He expanded his small apartment job shop to the extent he had to move out and find a home with a large garage. From there he has now expanded into quite a large concern which he has located on his family ranch in Ohio. John now at the top of his game was considering taking on a machinist. His podcast on YouTube is his dilemma of how he should go about employing someone and if he should even consider doing so. Like many self-employed operators or small enterprises John tried to justify filling a 40 hour week to necessitate having a new member of staff, his dilemma was that he could only see the time it would take to train someone and the work he was already capable of fulfilling himself. John then comes to the conclusion that actually he was looking at the problem all wrong, it wasnt weather he could afford and justify a new member of staff but that the new staff member would increase his productivity. He didnt need to divvy the work up to justify filling the hours but use the extra pair of hands to achieve a greater output. Its pure magic, everyone I have worked for has used the blinkered approach of how can I find enough work to justify making them busy. John describes how an employee should be considered in much the same way as a machine, you bring work in to feed the machine not buy a machine because you think you have a years worth of work for it.

The pod cast is here

 2:00 onwards

I cant keep banging on about it enough, recruiters are looking in the wrong place, and there is a huge out pouring of skilled individuals out there. Why is the industry incapable or reluctant to tap into it, perhaps its more desirable to look for cheap foreign labour and the noise is simply to get the government to open the flood gates and drive down UK wages. I am of the opinion engineering employers in the UK are destroying a fantastic occupation and career in engineering for many and insulting their intelligence by saying there is a skills shortage when they themselves are the recipient regarding skills. What they need to remember is engineers are born - there isnt a degree course for one year olds. There are however courses for academics with the intelligence of one year Olds.

As employers now heavily recruit from universities/graduates there will be a skills shortage. Society is changing to treat /ignore manual skilled manual skilled workers as being common and lesser individuals. The wages for graduates was very poor at one stage, however they are now increasing as employers are sifting through to get the top graduates are and are in competition other employers similarly the craftsman's wages have reduced only capped from falling any further by the minimum wage. There will be a situation within the next 10 to 15 years where skilled trades will no longer be an option as those who desire such an occupation won't bother as a result of such the wages. This is not just an engineering issue but is evident amongst all manual occupations leading to a shortage of workers to fill the roles.
It is a question of aspirations the rich don't need the money but are obsessed with maintaining their stature and well they are almost gambling to increase their wealth as a hobby or obsession. The middle-class wants the lifestyle they think they should have and deserve. Unfortunately practical people will always end up being treated like subservient workers as those who don't want to get their hands dirty think dirty work is beneath them and therefore psychologically they decide people who work in the dirt are beneath them.

The workers just don't want to have two worry about bills or unemployment, a holiday would be nice -- being able to afford a roof over their heads might be pushing it. Over last 20 years it has become difficult if not impossible to better oneself due to the cost and again the availability of options. There will be antagonists who believe this is not true.

Here is an example
a forty year old in the North of England/Northwest Scotland wishes to change career path as they can no longer gain employment in engineering due to the lack of employers and industry. Using their skills set they would perhaps look for other areas of engineering, avionics, fire safety, petrochemical etc. The first stumbling block is the availability of college courses; my local college caters for a tire factory, to food factories and Sellafield. The courses are offered are very limited in what they offer, the companies themselves are disillusioned with the quality of the courses offered. Adult career advice is nil, okay there is limited advice if you are signed on as an employed and is offered by civil servants with no knowledge of engineering.
If you have a mortgage, a family to support and quite big loans already , is pursuing a degree really an option especially one which would require a move to an area where there were more educational/career options. Lets be realistic these individuals will not get loans to pursue further education and if my miracle they can then the loan only supports the individual and not their dependence. In wealthy areas universities are boosted by investment companies wishing to carry out research and product development -- this investment is imperative that the future development of the country. This investment creates many benefits, the students in the university's are taught with the methods and in subjects which are highly desirable to the investor/employer. They themselves benefit from having a never-ending source of adequately trained employees -- they get free labour for their research, from many minds and from many backgrounds.

The North of England, south-west Scotland and the Borders do not get the investment/research grants or at the very least our limited by the number of available investors as there are insufficient employers/companies let alone finding them willing to invest in educational establishments. This is with the exception of the large cities like Newcastle and Glasgow and its surrounding areas which have received government investment coupled with private investment in pushing technology. The same can't be said of Cumbria which as one of the largest counties which covers over 10% of the country's land mass if you include the border area. That is a huge swathe of the country lacking employers and investment. The North of England as a whole is experiencing the same.

The government's new label for the less well-off JAM (just about managing) should be a wake-up call to the government and are the social consciousness and empathy of corporations as to their responsibility for putting people before profit. The jams aren't those on less than £35,000, I have only one response to the Prime Minister and that is she does not realise that there are entire counties in the United Kingdom to which this applies, the average wage in Cumbria is £22,000 most work for less.

Andrew Hawley from the Bank of England reported on the stagnation/tail end of productivity he reports how the stagnation of productivity is directly linked to employees fulfilment in the workplace.


It take an extremely brave company to stand back and break the circle, using the model of Cadbury and workers before profit is going to be hard but is now necessary as the current thinking is leading to mass unemployment and dissatisfaction. Many are still using the American business model from the 1980s and as can be observed from the current state of the US it has a lead to mass unemployment for them also.

My prediction is that things will change but not fast enough and not until the damage is done. The next 20 years will see the wilful destruction of the NHS leading to a major health crisis which when combined with current employment situation in the UK will lead to a crash on a biblical scale. We only need to look towards our American neighbours to realise the outcome of our current train of thought. There is a choice to make steps to avoid it now or pay a huge price later. Whilst the NHS free and not on subscription the working class can at least stay alive, if you were to compare with an ant colony, the colony would almost certainly die without its worker ants. In simple terms it is unlikely that the well-off are going to get their hands dirty performing menial tasks when the workers have all expired.

Youth
I don't think bringing back the National service is the answer but a cadet programme using mothballed military establishments would put a great deal back into the community by teaching youngsters skills, show them comradeship and broadening their horizons more akin to the Duke of Edinburgh scheme than military school. The cost of which would be cheaper than paying unemployment benefit and temporarily solve the housing shortage of young people.

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Rangi (Aug 12, 2020),

Scotty12 (Aug 11, 2020),

Tonyg (Aug 12, 2020),

Toolmaker51 (Aug 10, 2020),

trigger (Aug 11, 2020)

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## Toolmaker51

Epic Jason, epic.

This kind of thinking comes up often among tradespeople, affected directly by it. We have more leverage then any group; yet truckers [or other large body] go on strike/ slowdown, everybody sits up and pays attention.
Not surprised you've not had responses. Those in charge don't receive sent-in remarks, underlings do. The readers have no clue on the overall situation and find trouble interpreting it; or grasping some facet and realizing "this is to important for the round file". Such dissemination should be mandatory at a board or stockholders meetings, stapled to foreheads of politicians, lobbyists and lawyers.
I'd start outside the companies and get a local newspaper to op-ed it in a series.

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## MeJasonT

Toolmaker, 
Thanks for your reply and support.


Would it surprise you to find that it has already been sent to the Guardian newspaper (uk), even Guy Martin the bloke who is the new figure head celebrity for promoting engineering and STEM. I think they use certain terminology to pretend that they are addressing the issue but are actually only giving it lip service. Look at the fortunes of Detroit, massive car manufacturing to ghost town in less than one persons lifetime. Government contracts being awarded to the richest states. 

The Uk has decided that our future is with tourism and the service industry. Universities have become capitalist organisations who’s product is to graduate some who can barely spell or add, that like selling a car without the wheels. University is a very interesting subject, the situation in the UK now is that you have to select a university located where the work is. You cant just be an obsessive child with the desire to be an engineer and go to your local establishment, say you wished to pursue a career in aviation, if you don’t go to Bristol your chances of finding an avionics course somewhere else in the country is slim.

Our local college/university is on the brink of closing (financial) it caters for the largest county in the UK with agricultural engineering, veterinary and forestry. What is that going to mean for a county who’s main occupations are among those very subjects. we do have establishments that cater for the nuclear industry but are obviously located on the door of our local Smithfield power plant, Sellafield. I suppose in in ancient American the name must mean that some bloke sold a field.
They have positioned themselves on the world market as a nuclear waste depository umm.

There is another UK obsession, selling off old machinery for scrap or export to Africa or other developing countries. The hobby or general interest market for machinery in the UK is restricted by availability, at least in the US there is flee markets that sell tools and machines - been watching Abom (Adam) on youtube. I would be in seventh heaven with such wonders. 

To say that technology wont take peoples jobs is a total lie. The car industry, John Deere and even Haas using this lockdown system approach to manufacturing is preventing the young engineers of the future from fixing their own cars etc as we did as children/young adults. Perhaps after many years of this locked for profit systems approach that many young people do indeed lack skills - who’s fault would that be, how could you encourage young people back into manufacturing.

Companies wont even encourage young people to be Saturday boys/girls where the can go ito a work environment and absorb the environment in which they want to work when they grow up.

Ok I’m angry as I’m on the scrap heap at 49 yrs old and they are bitching about wanting my skills but doing bugger all about it, unfortunately the whole thing is a mess and appears to be hitting the UK and US much harder than any other country - hell even Europe has more respect for its skilled workers and education system.

Even with these new fancy project management tools and problem solving tools like Triz, sigma etc. Ignoring the fact that some people are just born with technical aptitude is not good for the future of manufacturing when they have spent the last 20 years trying to teach skills to technically inept people with such tools.

I was hoping for some furious debate on this forum but i do realise its preaching to a crowd thats almost certainly on the same page - bit of one sided debate.

In had high hopes before covid for the future of manufacturing, it looked like a new spark had been lit. 3D printers, Quadcopters and this new exciting drive to promote machining by the likes of Titans of CNC and NYCCNC, even Autodesk by allowing a free loaned licence of Fusion 360 to everyone. It could be the new industrial revolution or a damp squid. The employers need to get on board and wake up to the wealth of skill out there and the ambition of people to endure no matter what, surely that in itself is a tick in the box at a job interview. 

Covid has taught us the just in time manufacturing and a reliance on the far east for manufactured parts is not sustainable, you also realise that our respective governments just see us all as statistics and numbers. 46.5K deaths in the UK and more in the US and they talk about the figures as being unfortunate. They are not figures they are people many of whom were struggling to keep in the rat race and put food on their tables - work on the lowest wages to clean up the filth of the rich. When they finally succeed in wiping out the working class they do realise that they will have to push the middle class into menial jobs and a life of poverty in order to maintain this hideous life model. The middle class will then become the insignificant numbers and being culled by the selfishness and stupidity of the capitalists. 

Its not always the best policy to beat your workers, One it amounts to slavery no matter what creed you are. If i go into my workshop every morning and shout your late at my machinery and hit it with a hammer when i don’t get the best maximum results from it, i can see it only having one outcome the machine giving up and being left the physically doing the work myself - employers need a huge F-ing wake up call. Making work a pleasurable environment will result in happier workers and a more productive environment, as they say manner cast nothing - you don’t have to give a worker a pay rise just to say good morning how are you, oh you need a new clamp for that machine ok i will see what i can do. Encouragement, its human nature to want to be treated like a human.

I was hoping that this new friendly and caring society brought about be covid would rub off on people and society would change for the better, we shall see.
The US like the UK must be looking at Germany right now and thinking what the hell are they doing that is keeping a lid on their numbers. we are supposed to be developed countries and yet we let a few capitalist individuals take the piss.

Don’t get me wrong i have nothing against capitalism but you do realise that some individuals know no limits and it end up just screwing money for monies sake. Sorry facebook, microsoft, sky tv, costa coffee, google,ebay. if you truly believe you are the Entrepreneur or Philanthropists you think you are then you owe a great debt of gratitude to those who put you there - your customers/the people.

Bill and Melinda Gates need to get a grip, oh we are wonderful helping these poor countries, do you not realise your responsibilities which led to to their poverty in the first place. As a country gets richer the money has to come from somewhere is the guy who stole the whole pc idea thing in the first place not aware of the impact he has on the world. i don’t think he is a hero for helping poor countries by spending his wealth i think he should consider it his responsibility for putting something back. This idea that he wants them all to have computers and has given some away free makes him more like a drug dealer that a prophet. Poor buggers can you imagine in twenty years time when they are forced to buy a new version of windows, their jobs are going down the swanny with the advent of technology. Bill leave the poor buggers alone, they are better off without your peddled ****.

The UK decided that every household would have a computer, funnily enough by 2020. (Prime minister Tony Blair). No you cant get any government services or access your bank account without a computer. these things are not free, Broadband costs on average £30 a month the pc will set you back £400, every five years you end up needing a new pc to run the latest dross operating system (which is also not free). There are only a few banks left in the uk now, in 10 years 4 out of 5 banks have been closed - quote "as every one is switching to online". How do we get suckered into such ****.

which brings me to the point of this piece of lavatory supply.

The only reason there is a skills shortage is because only migrants are prepared to work for peanuts, the average US/UK citizen cant work for less than the minimum wage as they themselves would end up on the street in poverty as a result of not being able to pay their own way and all the taxes. we are being bullied int accepting less and less whilst our employers are expecting more and more both from staff and a higher standard of living for themselves.

How did the west end up so screwed up. If the BLM movement want to be honest, their campaign is based on this very subject, they cant get work, they cant get good pay, they feel like society treats them like slaves. They may also feel they are being driven into a life of poverty and crime. Do they think that the same does not apply to whites (the automatic racist alternative to blacks) - we cant mention or point out issues involving them but their target is Whites, i don’t like being called white, its racist. The only reason the term is used is to blame me for the human trafficking which took place 200+ years ago and predominantly by the Dutch and Spanish. Pulling down/defacing war memorials says a lot, they do realise their brothers stood side by side on the battlefield and fell fighting for their freedom. The freedom to cause civil disturbance without being shot for example. i thought i had better mention the minority angle as the skills shortage affects all.

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## Philip Davies

Jason, I sympathise.
If you can’t get a job, with decent pay, that dignifies your breadth of experience and skills, it’s iron in the soul.
Blue collar, white collar is an old wound that has never healed, the blues have the pain the whites are bewildered.
With respect, your article is very long. My concentration lapsed and I could not get through it all. Sorry. But if you hope for publication, you should radically abridge it.

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MeJasonT (Aug 11, 2020)

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## Toolmaker51

Yes, in reference to HMT.net, it is preaching to the choir. I'm certain majority here think alike.
But that majority, despite their resource of un-replaceable knowledge, few say they are mentoring. Without making myself out a champion of the issues, that is one consistent effort I make. 
Another, possibly greater effect, promotes a specific thought, what we do is no way a mere hobby. It might be a pastime, or conducted without compensation, but we duplicate processes of the very largest industries. In many countries, with same type equipment and floor space, they're subcontractors to industry. 

Regarding the choir and our collective posts, our thoughts make it to the web too, for anyone conducting a proper search. And I see ~ 8 of us view [so far] this thread, 3 right now, who judge each a 'brother in arms'. We'll not get anywhere being humble.

Far as trying to repair history, obliterating statues etc, those liberalized morons find it easy. Why? Because they have not made any sacrifice or contribution to society. 
And I guarantee when/ if all that evidence is erased, _every_ offensive act will surface again.

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MeJasonT (Aug 11, 2020)

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## MeJasonT

Thanks gents.
Yes it is a bit of a mind dump, i fully understand the loss of direction and will to live on such a long script. You do have my sympathy.
My head is just full of noise, injustice, creativity and ambition in a swirling mass of near hysteria.
Its nice to know there are individuals such as yourselves who care enough to read and respond - it makes one realise that its not just in their own head.

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Toolmaker51 (Aug 11, 2020)

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## Philip Davies

Jason, I am not ashamed to confess that have been taking prescribed anti-depressants for something like 30 years. I was very ill. If your head is in such a whirl, you may find that you develop psychosomatic symptoms. These are not illusory. Sleep disruption, stomach ulcers, urinary difficulties. These can lead to more dangerous developments, as your GP is, or should be, aware. 
You may find it helpful to join a Men’s Shed, if there’s one near you.

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MeJasonT (Aug 11, 2020)

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## Toolmaker51

Again there is agreement, and no fault in length or complexity. Like a large building, many windows [perspectives, viewpoints] not a terrarium. 

I've thought for a long time, on why so many want, pursue and dominate their own shop. Why on earth do people invest hard earned funds without any guarantee of income, a return of investments? Who dangles that carrot and stick? 
Hells Bells, we tie our own together. It regains control of atmosphere, the environment, that provide genuine job satisfaction, even when something goes wrong. 

The vast cloning of one-year MBA's, pumped out by mislead professors don't understand the basics of work and compensation; keystones of satisfaction. They teach a process, not a skill, we're leveraged with near communistic manner and result.

At days end, they itch to get home and work on management theory? Compare how many tradespeople go home and extend their workday into tangible objects. Bet is some do it the other way 'round!

While MeJasonT titled the thread "Lack of Good Management...", I see this more of "Absence of Proper Management...". The skill set is there, just morbidly untapped.

I'd [with 26 years USN] prefer businesses run like the military. Incentives, what a novel concept!
You want to earn more? Not until proving you know more. Don't get me started on support of lowest common denominators; unions.
You want to supervise? Be a good crew member. To advance among enlisted ranks, a good deal of time goes into study of 'Human Behavior', increasing with each grade. 
You want to retire? Do things to increase your value to the organization, or get the boot with unsatisfactory discharge. 

Not discounting Phillip Davies advice on a Mens Shed; don't look for one, START one!

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MeJasonT (Aug 11, 2020)

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## MeJasonT

Philip is quite close to the bone, if i were in school now i would probably be diagnosed with one of those fancy new illnesses.
all engineers show signs of Autism to one degree or another, anti social, fixation, the close attention to detail. i also have traits of Asperger’s syndrome and the slightest thing can bring out rage and Tourettes. The older i get the more impatient I’m becoming. Toolmaker, you have probably recognised by now my military service. it really is a royal pain when you have the discipline to just get the job done and a bunch of egotistical narcissistic smokers are spending the day doing fresh all.
The Mens sheds is a bit of a strange concept, unfortunately we dont have a group close to my location both a good hours drive, wigton and Caldbeck. I did reach out to Caldbeck but no response - they are also concentrated on Joinery. Setting up my own shed, i enquired with the association’s admin and found out what was required to set up a group. basically you pay an admin charge to the association then try and get a group of people together and then try to build on your groups combined abilities to establish a base to operate from and sourcing equipment etc. That sort of left me cold, I pay an admin fee to do all the work myself. I looked into setting up a maker space it got off to a reasonable start with 10 members, the numbers very quickly dropped off, 2 members were school caretakers/support staff who were on the blag for information to set up their own group, my work colleague sort of took over the role of running the group (not a bad thing at all) and very quickly ended up out of his depth with no direction. it started to become clear that the other group members were not going to bring much to the party and were looking to be spoon fed ideas and projects. i was looking for more of a social group of mixed disciplines where we brought our own ideas and projects into the group. the other members slowly but surely vanished one by one as their other commitments took them away from the group. One guy worked at Sellafield and travelled one and a half hours, he was the most committed and was one of the last to drop by the way side. I tried to fire up the group again at our very poorly used community centre, the organiser at the centre took the idea filled my butt with smoke then absolutely bugger all happened. It died the moment i pitched the idea.

I don’t rule out that inwardly im suffering depression, its been a nightmare discussing issues with our local surgery quacks, i say quacks as i don’t have a great deal of time or respect for overpaid General Practitioners who wrongly diagnosed me with asthma. five years it took to get to see the specialist who ruled it out in 5 minutes when i had sufficient capacity the blow the meters off the scale - seven and a half years now and still have a persistent cough (and reflux). Discussing matters of depression, its very hard to show doctors your failure to function normally when you are ex forces, disciplined, don’t show weakness and have a tendency of being a control freak. all of which apparently counteract the argument for depression. you can see why so many ex service personnel end up snapping and loosing the plot. the forces did a great job of reversing the training from killer back to civilian by doing absolutely bugger all. if it wasn’t for them building in strength of character and a strong perception of fairness then they really would have a problem with ex service personnel on the streets. The wanton destruction of memorials was enough to make the blood boil especially during lock down for covid - and by young white people as well. sorry that’s racist mentioning the colour of a person committing a crime. i have started reading a book titled "the power of now by Eckhart Tolle" im 10 pages in and already have a grasp of where the guy is coming from. The noise in our heads, if its not the i want to upgrade my milling machine, i need to do this or that, where is the next job coming in from thanks to covid and my girlfriend constant list of jobs she loves to verbalise. You realise your head is full of noise, luckily i like my own company so sloping off into the workshop is quite an escape - provided jobs go well. yesterday i was wound up and went in to the shop which resulted in the snapping of the last 4mm tap.
Its not that covid restrictions are getting to me, ive spent plenty of time at sea. its the fact you can’t just be free to go and do what you want despite the fact you don’t really want to go anywhere - its just the fact you cant. once the restrictions are lifted further i am going to be seeking help, there is a lady in penrith who deals with mental health problems and specialises in ex service personnel amongst her clientele. The reflux/persistent cough im planning to go private and seek the advice of a specialist in Sunderland. The control freak part of me has already diagnosed gurd or COPD. The broken sleep really is not helping very much. I have no interest in shortening my own existence what so ever but if i went to sleep and didn’t wake up i wouldn’t fear it.  :Smile: 
Whilst everyone else is jumping on the band wagon of debating their mental health then perhaps those of us who have kept silent and stupidly brave all these years should be herd as well, I have all the time in the world to help anyone who reaches out to me and its becoming really clear that I don’t have to suffer in silence.
Who needs men’s sheds when we have homemade tools apart from when you see fantastic tool designs, you drive yourself demented trying to build yet another one you don’t have space for.

Thanks guys it means a lot.

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Toolmaker51 (Aug 12, 2020)

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## Rangi

Many thanks. Well written. 
The lessons and views given here are also applicable to what we need in New Zealand.

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MeJasonT (Aug 12, 2020)

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## MeJasonT

Thanks Rangi,
I’m surprised to hear there is a similar situation in New Zealand, It always comes across in our media that you have a good quality of life out there.
wow, Interesting.

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## MeJasonT

It would be nice to think that engineers could finally get some respect for their input to society.

Engineer as in someone who works in the capacity of engineering and not the title given to those select few academics.

A first year nursing student isn’t called a bed pan operative or told they are not nurses until they have a masters in medicine
Care workers although very poorly paid and treated at least get the title of their profession, it would be nice if at least they could be promoted to the superior level of technician like a hairdresser. 
Yes they have a bad habit of de valuing those who actually do the work. Nobody likes solicitors (unless you need one) and yet they are amongst the highest paid with privilege and title.

Its a shame we cant get our voices to be heard around the world and the message to spread like this pandemic.
Which incidentally is wiping out more working class people than it is the rich - I have yet to hear of a single celebrity who has died of covid or CEO of an international company. Something sets them apart from the rest of us $$.

We need ELM, engineers lives matter, they would be screwed without us.
I have a few debates with my good lady which i nearly always loose, The male/female topic is often discussed. I like to mention that every single appliance and aid used has been designed and manufactured by men to make their lives easier, we have endured harsh environments, been poorly paid worked with dangerous substances and had some employers who by definition should be classed as slave masters. I welcome ladies into engineering but don’t expect it to be a picnic, they receive higher standards as a result of being given a much higher respect than men in the work environment as a result of their fight to be treated more fairly. I’ve yet to see an employer who says i treat my male staff like **** so you will receive the same conditions. Gender neutral should mean gender neutral.
Will the Me2 movement ever come out and say we want all people to be treated the same and it’s about time things improved for our men as well.

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## Rangi

We do have a good quality of life where many of us "work to live rather than live to work". Sport and the great outdoors are still the recreational choice. 
How ever, back on the subject, the removal of the apprenticeship systems and an emphisis on getting a degree was a retrograde step.

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MeJasonT (Aug 12, 2020)

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## Toolmaker51

Sure thing Jason; aware of your sea service quite some time. I think it was during posts about UNREP. Also identify with the awareness, concerns, and personal traits detailed in post #9 . Should you, or other readers feel need to bounce those around with another brother of a different mother; don't hesitate, just hit PM. Two heads are better than one, right? Warning, [tongue in cheek] my identity rides along with music & lyrics; via any mood I need can be lit up. And no one questions if I inhaled...ever.

Can't pick exactly when I noticed 'we' [makers, engineers, craftspersons] have very parallel sets of interests; not narrow but interconnected, in that abilities in one are utilized elsewhere. The interesting facet, no pattern is apparent. The idea to create a maker space in my region; came about visiting one 70 miles away. I was disappointed in what they had listed as metal working equipment and capabilities. I need access to those as means to bridge chasm of moving equipment in to hooking up electrics. It's clear others will have different requirements, but have not means or place to accomplish them. My equipment list rivals any commercial facility in several ways, bettering a few. Things are in place for a trade school, maker-space, DIY tool rental, tool sharpening, even a manufacturing 'museum' operating under banner of so far unnamed toolroom, fabrication and repair shop. 
None will ever hear me say "always did it this way". I hate that with a passion; proper response should be "this way works, but...." always look for improvement.

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MeJasonT (Aug 12, 2020),

Philip Davies (Aug 12, 2020)

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