# Off-Topic >  Valuable content or?

## Saltfever

A recent post by Jon here has prompted this post. 

I have noticed a disturbing trend on HomemadeTools.

In the beginning keen minds and creative people all over the world altruistically posted valuable content without any thought of compensation. It was humanity at best, sharing and giving away useful content simply to help their fellow man. Content was always high quality and with enough diversification to stimulate the interest of just about anybody. Lately, I see content quality *eroding* with videos being used as a tool to simply collect revenue from You Tube adds. Quite frankly, I resent HT being used by such opportunists! I agree censorship is bad. Also, it is extremely difficult to weigh the delicate balance between what is “useful” content and diluted content purely for financial gain! However, when I see a short video with 3-6 adds, the author’s intent is clear and I don’t like being used that way. 

Jon THANK YOU for this site. I know it isn't an easy job and I support you in any direction you take.

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DIYSwede (Jun 29, 2019),

mklotz (Mar 30, 2019),

Okapi (Apr 8, 2019),

Toolmaker51 (Mar 30, 2019)

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## Toolmaker51

> A recent post by Jon here has prompted this post. 
> 
> I have noticed a disturbing trend on HomemadeTools.
> 
> In the beginning keen minds and creative people all over the world altruistically posted valuable content without any thought of compensation. It was humanity at best, sharing and giving away useful content simply to help their fellow man. Content was always high quality and with enough diversification to stimulate the interest of just about anybody. Lately, I see content quality *eroding* with videos being used as a tool to simply collect revenue from You Tube adds. Quite frankly, I resent HT being used by such opportunists! I agree censorship is bad. Also, it is extremely difficult to weigh the delicate balance between what is “useful” content and diluted content purely for financial gain! However, when I see a short video with 3-6 adds, the author’s intent is clear and I don’t like being used that way. 
> 
> Jon THANK YOU for this site. I know it isn't an easy job and I support you in any direction you take.




Youtube to me consists mainly of self-professed expertise, agendas, or vile promotion of distasteful material. Naturally, as with any media, there are exceptions.
My perspective is identical to Saltfever's, while contributors [HMT.net] produce excellent videos, dismay occurs with ads. While the subject content may have value, recall very few that compelled initiating or altering what I practice already. Bookmark or delete, fork in the road is ad content.
I suspect varied advertisements offer different amounts of income. Unless they pertain to my interests [rare] I shut down the video. I don't know who selects ads tied to videos; but spellcheck programs, presswood furniture, big or little pharma, auto sales, dating sites, hair restoration f'n insurance . . . INSTANT case of rejection. 

None a speck better than email spam. I also ignore 'suggestions' popping up at the end, positive the original poster has no control of that either.

There is one reason _I do not post video_. No question I'd create useful, easily watched material in the vein of Adam, Keith, Pete, Tony and the others. 
Until determining my content IS NOT available to commercial scabs what-so-ever; consider "I do not..." and "I will not..." identical positions on the matter.

Conversely, until sites like HMT.net have their own means of posting video; a] non-commercialized, b] that pausing won't generate suggestions, c] without ending with pitches to view something else [besides next of a series], I have no interest.

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mklotz (Mar 30, 2019),

olderdan (Mar 30, 2019)

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## Jon

Not ignoring. This is a valid issue on our table now, being discussed both on the forum and in our latest batch of forum feedback PMs. I have a reply drafted, but I need to chop it down in length (hint, hint YouTubers  :Smile: ). I'd like to wait for a few more replies too.

We are separating the jealpaul issue (which we are addressing right now) from the low-quality content issue, because the issue with the videos that jealpaul posted is not an issue of quality. Those were perfectly good videos; the problem was the copying. jealpaul's fraud was successful (at first) because he exposed a weakness of ours: he crossed a language/culture gap better than we did, by finding non-English ("non-Western" is reasonable here too) videos and presenting them on our English language forum as his own. In fact, the jealpaul issue has opened our eyes even further to the excellent tool building that is going on in Russia and parts of Eastern Europe (jealpaul was actually posting from a Vietnamese IP, but it looks like he favored targeting Russian language videos for copying). Some of our best tool builders come from that part of the world. That (again, kinda similar but mostly separate) issue can be addressed with active reachout to tool builders from that region. For example, if those videos were posted on this forum by their original creators, because they were encouraged to do so by a bilingual social media worker working for us, it would be a 100% win.

If you haven't yet replied to our recent batch of feedback requests, check your PMs and you can reply with an expectation of privacy, or of course you can just reply publicly in this thread.

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Saltfever (Mar 31, 2019),

Toolmaker51 (Mar 30, 2019)

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## Saltfever

I agree plagiarizing content is a separate issue. The JealPaul deceit annoyed me enough to speak up but I didn’t want to thread-jack and have it take off in a different direction. I started this thread to bring focus on content dilution!

We are all looking for the golden nugget of content that pertains to us individually so I have an extremely wide tolerance for all things technical. However, when I see more than 1 add-bar on the U-Tube time line, the author’s intent is suspicious immediately. If it is a low value subject for me, I delete. If it is a high value subject for me I may randomly click a few screen shots to access overall quality. Lately, 2 or 3 out of 10 have redeeming content, the rest have been marketing swill.

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Toolmaker51 (Mar 31, 2019)

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## Toolmaker51

> I agree plagiarizing content is a separate issue. The JealPaul deceit annoyed me enough to speak up but I didn’t want to thread-jack and have it take off in a different direction. I started this thread to bring focus on content dilution!
> 
> We are all looking for the golden nugget of content that pertains to us individually so I have an extremely wide tolerance for all things technical. However, when I see more that 1 add-bar on the U-Tube time line, the author’s intent is suspicious immediately. If it is a low value subject for me, I delete. If it is a high value subject for me I may randomly click a few screen shots to access overall quality. Lately, 2 or 3 out of 10 have redeeming content, the rest have been marketing swill.



I feel hijacking [hmt.net in particular] occurs because our own thirst for knowledge and desire to help each other, interconnect. Much like a conversation, when "what if's" interject, those perspectives round out viewpoints.
I recall opening a youtube vid, timeline had 5 or 6 ad signals! Granted, a 30+ minute presentation, but at 4x the rate of television ads? Needless to say, that video didn't collect anticipated revenue!
I agree with Saltfever; screen shots and copy/ paste remedy all the trivial details, self-tailoring decent content. Why not, Cliff-Notes makes a fortune providing students that service.
Although the case against jealpaul won't reach prosecution, his avatar shows him in appropriate attire. Lol.

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## Okapi

Reading this post, where I agree totally with Saltfever, I've seen something which can be interesting about YouTube publicity, when I look with my TV they are a lot more than on the computer where I'm using some adblockers, the most interesting videos without ads need eventually be classified in the forum with stars for example by the members or to say if it is some ads but the video is interesting and need to pass them ?
Thanks to the administrators who read my explanation eventually not very well wrote… :Confused:

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Saltfever (Apr 8, 2019),

Toolmaker51 (Apr 8, 2019)

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## shopandmath

Hi every one
Correct me if I me wrong this post is against advertising and plagiarism
I am hoping it not against videos 
Because I love them and they are so hard to make (even a bad one have some good stuff in it)
I have two YouTube channels
One for work 
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0a...hdlJy1OIlo1Qmw
and one for fun
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfe...wKgzvOQ4RIkVFg
they do not have any advertising on them
my key message is to educate and help others 
I try to leave places better than I found them
Ray

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Okapi (Jun 30, 2019)

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## Crusty

I'm completely fed up with "GREAT, GENIUS, INCREDIBLE" "HACKS" in 35 minute long videos with 3½ minutes of worthwhile content (Don't we all know how to drill holes without watching someone else make another 10 holes?) which consist mostly of techniques that were considered essential workshop skills a generation ago. While I do appreciate and support the learning of the presenter I resent the squandering of my time for someone else's potential financial gain. I skip through these kiddie vids now to save my time but I often wonder if I've missed the worthwhile tidbit when I do. 

Keep the bar high.

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Al8236 (Jul 16, 2019),

Toolmaker51 (Jun 30, 2019)

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## mklotz

> I'm completely fed up with "GREAT, GENIUS, INCREDIBLE" "HACKS" in 35 minute long videos with 3½ minutes of worthwhile content (Don't we all know how to drill holes without watching someone else make another 10 holes?) which consist mostly of techniques that were considered essential workshop skills a generation ago. While I do appreciate and support the learning of the presenter I resent the squandering of my time for someone else's potential financial gain. I skip through these kiddie vids now to save my time but I often wonder if I've missed the worthwhile tidbit when I do. 
> 
> Keep the bar high.



In addition to using over-the-top adjectives as ignore-flags, I immediately ignore anything that offers only a video as the description. Without some text or still photos to give me a hint of the subject I'm on to the next thread.

Also, if metal is cut with a angle grinder in the first ten seconds of the video, it's goodbye for me.

Another good bellwether is text under the video pleading for the reader to become a subscriber.

Some of these bloated videos remind me of a favorite Dorothy Parker quote...

This is not a novel _(post)_ to be tossed aside lightly. It should be thrown with great force. (Italics mine.)

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Toolmaker51 (Jun 30, 2019)

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## Crusty

> ...
> 
> This is not a novel _(post)_ to be tossed aside lightly. It should be thrown with great force. (Italics mine.)



That's hilarious!

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## mklotz

> That's hilarious!



Dorothy is one of my favorites. I especially appreciate her cheery, upbeat outlook on life...

Razors pain you;
Rivers are damp;
Acids stain you;
And drugs cause cramp.
Guns aren't lawful;
Nooses give;
Gas smells awful;
You might as well live.

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DIYSwede (Jun 29, 2019)

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## Crusty

Or, as Red Skelton said "_When I wake up and if I don't see flowers and hear people singing hymns I go ahead and get up._"

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## Jon

Bigger question is do we do something actionable?

The only vids that irk me in a commercial content way are the blatant sponsored ones that contain obvious evidence that tool companies have approached the video maker for sponsored content, or they're doing Amazon Affiliate work (basically anyone can sell Amazon's stuff, using a special "affiliate" link, and then they get a cut of the sales).

We can do stuff like move more videos into the Basic Homemade Tools subforum.

But the net result of us recruiting YTers has been very positive.

What helps me is to simply watch YT videos at faster speeds. I usually adjust to 1.25 or 1.5 via the cog menu at the bottom-right. Once you gain exposure to a lot of web content, especially videos, tolerance for long-windedness rapidly diminishes, both in consuming content, and even in consuming real life conversations. In net slang it's known as GTTFP.

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## Crusty

Don't pay any attention to me - I'm an old curmudgeon. I'll learn to be more selective about where I invest my time. 

It would help if more users were to use the voting controls to downrate posts which are a waste of time and uprate posts that are worthwhile and we'd have an indication of the hive mind's value of them at a glance.

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## Jon

That's a very valid point. We have an upvote (Thanks) function, but no downvote function. I hate to say it, but this is the same issue with Facebook.

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## Crusty

Looks to me like the rating scale goes from bad to good (one star to five stars, three stars is median) and that's an adequate system for me. We just need more users to take the additional few seconds to add their rating.

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## Jon

Another good point. However, I can say unequivocally, speaking from extraordinary experience (I've personally posted on hundreds of forums), that yes, the star rating scales are almost universally ignored across forums.

I'm not sure why. Could be lack of prominence of the rating system. Could also be that upvote/downvote is clearer than 1-5 star rating (most posts get 0 star ratings; is that better or worse than 1 star?). For example, someone was just explaining to me last week that the famous Michelin star restaurant rating system is assigned one star at a time. Thus, to get 1 Michelin star is actually quite an honor.

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Toolmaker51 (Jun 30, 2019)

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## Crusty

I think users just need to be aware that the rating feature exists and to take a more active role in keeping this site useful and high quality. Anyone that uses machine tools can easily handle the complexity of selecting between one and five stars and doesn't need an up/down cartoon thumb.

For practice, posters can add their own rating to this thread and become familiar with it. As more threads are rated by users the forum overall becomes more useful. It's an easy way of giving back to this community.

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shopandmath (Jun 29, 2019)

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## shopandmath

What is the (the jealpaul issue) I am new don't know the reference ?
and sorry on may last video post I did the (text under the video pleading for the reader to become a subscriber)
that will not happen again
Ray

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## Jon

You're allowed to solicit subscribers. The core issue here is low quality videos (yours are NOT low quality) that are aggressively accompanied by calls to subscribe.

The jealpaul issue involved a guy copying others' videos, and claiming them as his own. More: Update on jealpaul video copying and banning

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## Okapi

> In addition to using over-the-top adjectives as ignore-flags, I immediately ignore anything that offers only a video as the description. Without some text or still photos to give me a hint of the subject I'm on to the next thread.
> 
> This is not a novel _(post)_ to be tossed aside lightly. It should be thrown with great force. (Italics mine.)



Sometimes especially for russian or osmanish language, images are better than text, as I'm looking for techniques about silversmith which I'm a newbie, good images can be enough, but it's only my own opinion.

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## mklotz

> Sometimes especially for russian or osmanish language, images are better than text, as I'm looking for techniques about silversmith which I'm a newbie, good images can be enough, but it's only my own opinion.



I understand the language difficulties but, if "images are better than text" then how about some introductory still images that demonstrate what the final product looks like and what its purpose is? I don't want to have to watch five minutes of the author drilling holes and cutting metal with an angle grinder to find out that he's building a table or a glorified fire poker.

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Toolmaker51 (Jun 30, 2019)

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## Toolmaker51

> Another good point. However, I can say unequivocally, speaking from extraordinary experience (I've personally posted on hundreds of forums), that yes, the star rating scales are almost universally ignored across forums.
> 
> I'm not sure why. Could be lack of prominence of the rating system. Could also be that upvote/downvote is clearer than 1-5 star rating (most posts get 0 star ratings; is that better or worse than 1 star?). For example, someone was just explaining to me last week that the famous Michelin star restaurant rating system is assigned one star at a time. Thus, to get 1 Michelin star is actually quite an honor.



_____________________________
We've been provided a Rating System? Can offer one hiccup, may clue why it's not utilized.
I enter HMT.net most often from of two email signals. 1] The page highlighting new posts with a picture of the video/ or jpeg [carries the link] and title. Someone's job is getting a graphic and title worth looking at. In no way could I describe a preference for specific topics. Like Marv points out, a still photo is a good start; scrolling on my laptop, author usually not visible at the same time, admittedly a handful I disregard knowing the content will be laden with ads. 2]I enter via emails to posts written or commented on.
There is are pages where short descriptions, a photo, and user name opens a different comment box and does have a prominent star rating selection. Not knowing what prompts those, here is an example http://www.homemadetools.net/homemad...ic-drill-stand I for one use those to rate both the presentation and usefulness I'd likely want to try that technique. 

My first suggestion would pull "Rate This Thread" from "View First Unread, Thread Tools etc" upper header of page, instead make it adjacent to the "Thanks" button, to be equally prominent. No charge to HMT.net; however I catch Facebook, Yahoo or Pinterest et-al implementations, I'll not be found so generous.

I will not post vids until means to exercise total control on ads occur. Seems I do well with jpegs and decent text. One acceptable pairing might be nice [ie] that say, a post on proper retaining ring selection/ install [BTW not all know there is a proper side outboard] had links to manufacturers of rings, pliers, carbide grooving inserts, and HSS blades. I also will not accept pausing a vid instantly throw pop-ups they promote as connected material. So called connected material always carry ads too. 
Below, notice signatures' tagline for Toolmaker51...just as I prefer buffet over menu.

So then poking "Rate This Thread" the reward is "A required field called <em>ipaddress</em> is missing or has an invalid value." IHNCWISTDN. Lol

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## Crusty

I began suddenly getting that error yesterday. I logged out of the site and rebooted my computer. I logged back in and the error was gone and remains so today. Hellifiknowwhy.

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Toolmaker51 (Jul 1, 2019)

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## Jon

The best content presentation these days is an increasing combination of photos, text, and video content. Starts off with one good photo and one good sentence, and gradually increases to a long video. You keep going as long as you like.

We may soon see the rise of GIF'ing to shorten vids. You can make your own GIFs of YT vids now fairly easily (just Google around for some web-based tools, they're common). This is the concept for Tool Talk content. If I see a long vid, unless it's extremely valuable (usually something historical), I'll either skip it, or GIF it down to size. You can see this trend among amateur video makers. Some of our more experienced guys produce 1-minute intro vids, that lead to longer vids. It's the newer video producers that are making 10+ minute vids right from the start, and they generally mature to producing shorter form content.

I've started being more disciplined about long-form paper book reading, in part to counter the attention issues that I believe may be accompanying the rapid consumption of the glut of short-form content we now have available on the web. I now have a 5-day-a-week recurring task in my productivity system: "Read two chapters in a book", and a tall stack of thick non-fiction books on my dresser, that are more intellectually demanding than my nightstand books.

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## Okapi

> I understand the language difficulties but, if "images are better than text" then how about some introductory still images that demonstrate what the final product looks like and what its purpose is? I don't want to have to watch five minutes of the author drilling holes and cutting metal with an angle grinder to find out that he's building a table or a glorified fire poker.



I forget to precise that they are videos coming from people I know, especially from Turkey with filigane work, or soldering techniques, they have some skills to work which need more examples as text, as an anecdote story, if you're using 18 or 19th century professional books, it was totally the opposite, no images because you are a worker who can understand what it's explained, and for us it's very difficult sometimes to use those books because many of the tools and methods described are no more in use, if you look at the RORET books(I don't know the names of the english language equivalent) they are just 10 pages at the end with the final result in images… :Sweating:

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## Toolmaker51

> I began suddenly getting that error yesterday. I logged out of the site and rebooted my computer. I logged back in and the error was gone and remains so today. Hellifiknowwhy.



Nope. Log out and restart didn't change it. 
All the others operate, though the 'redirect' ? to Digg etc I don't access elsewhere making those inconclusive. Even Remove Thanks does, so if you don't watch yourself........just kidding, I'd never do that.

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## Saltfever

> . . . how about some introductory still images that *demonstrate what the final product looks like* and what its purpose is? I don't want to have to watch five minutes of the author drilling holes a . . .



The first thing I do is a few exploratory clicks at the *end* of the video to see the final product. Then I decide to either delete or to jump to the beginning. Most authors refuse to display their finished product at the beginning of the video. Are they inconsiderate or ignorant? Don't care . . . I have adapted accordingly.

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Okapi (Jul 3, 2019),

Toolmaker51 (Jul 2, 2019)

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## Crusty

The viewer contempt often displayed is for the most part due to creators having no learned skills in videography, editing and teaching. Drives me up the wall too but I cut most of them some slack because they're new at it. Videos that waste my time with blather, hip or commerciality get bypassed as quick as I can down thumb them though.

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## Toolmaker51

That videography is learned, often self taught means no standard exists to insure some grade of production. If they don't open by featuring the project or at least what stage it's in, I read that as sure-to-be inconsequential content. It's not shown because there is no confidence; completed item has no shred of worthiness. That said, there are HMTnet posts full of cut-off and shaping wizardry. Their process has merit equal to the project.

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Okapi (Jul 3, 2019)

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## DIYSwede

Now - perhaps I violated the Acceptable Use Policy myself, regarding my slightly ironical reply to this thread ?
http://www.homemadetools.net/forum/m...ne-motor-73894

Feel free to reply - and pardon me as I temporarily was lacking impulse control, when so amazed at the sheer density of ads in this particular video.

As I found these quotes in the AUP - I wonder if these could be applicable (my bold & italics):

_"You agree not to engage in any of the following prohibited activities:"
" Send any unsolicited or unauthorized spam and spam comments on posts, advertising messages, 
promotional materials, email, junk mail, chain letters or other form of solicitation"_ and
_"Use the Service for any commercial purpose or the benefit of any third party, 
except as otherwise explicitly permitted for you by us or in any manner not permitted by the Terms."_

I'd be grateful for clarification.
Regards, Johan / DIYSwede

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## Jon

Probably no problem there. What was the issue with that video? There's been a great deal of drama recently with YT increasing ads per vid, plus sponsored vids are on the rise, people using affiliate links in their descriptions, etc.

Broadly, we try to balance commercial content with the value of informational content. I want YouTubers to make money making videos about homemade tools, as long as their ads aren't overboard.

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DIYSwede (Jul 14, 2019)

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## Toolmaker51

> ........<snipped>
> Broadly, we try to balance commercial content with the value of informational content. I want YouTubers to make money making videos about homemade tools, as long as their ads aren't overboard.



One continual burr under my saddle is advertising. Don't think I can show more than a handful of items purchased by what featured in advertisements. Huge percentage acquired because I happened to use/ see it work/ obvious utility; but FIRST HAND. To me, ads symbolize lesser products; good ones sell themselves.

I see it this way. 
Using television and radio as example, access wasn't charged. You bought a receiver, ads paid for air time, hopefully pulling in customers. When cable started; viewers bought access; were no commercials other than station ID. You buy internet or private broadcast radio, no ads. Not yet anyway.
At least you can block or filter spam emails and ads. I use hotmail.com going on 24 [?] [!] years now. It performs to my satisfaction filter wise, ignoring pitch for premium to remove ads. An adblocker kills it just fine.
I pay for internet access. Advertisers pursue us with un-targeted material; wrong age group, wrong gender, wrong lifestyle, wrong algorithms. 
I regard the same situation over our mobile phones even worse because of touch screens, any slight brush initiates something IN THE WAY of your intent.
Maybe old-fashioned, a difficult personality, or not a sheeple. It should be our call, who needs who. Not invasive actions that equate piracy, [as in pirates] commandeering my service 'property'. We are stuck with it until enough say No. 
What would be a good commercial? One convincing me to change my mind!

I don't know about remainder of planet, but common standard was ad breaks at 15 minute intervals MOL......until Walmart started doubling [repeating same ads] then all hell broke loose. 
I'd call 16 [sixteen!] banners in a 20:45 [running standard or accelerated rate] minute video a shakedown. Somebody welding, sell me a helmet. Dial in a 4-jaw, sell indicators, or collets lol. Unless every banner relates somehow to mechanics, hardware, machinery, tools et-al; I'll not view further.

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## DIYSwede

> Probably no problem there. What was the issue with that video?/Snip/
> Broadly, we try to balance commercial content with the value of informational content. 
> I want YouTubers to make money making videos about homemade tools, as long as their ads aren't overboard.



Thanks for clarification Jon, and thanks for keeping this eminent site, and I really appreciate your balancing acts.

"The issue" was just my personal amazement regarding *the ad banner vs content-ratio. 
16 banners in less than a 21 min video...*
I called for some guidance in precisely when their ads could be considered "overboard",
then follows someone's chore of "self-restraint-counseling for those (unknowing) in dire need of same".

Perhaps this weeks "winner" (of this my ratio contest) will have an "over-unity ad/content-ratio"?

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## Saltfever

Kam, sorry, a couple of weeks have elapsed since your post today. I'm a little bit confused . . . what are you talking about?  :Confused:

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