# Tool Talk >  Farmers jailbreaking John Deere tractors to repair them - video

## Jon

Farmers jailbreaking modern John Deere tractors so that they can repair them themselves. 11:30 video:





More: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electr...ight_to_repair

Previously:

John Deere tactical tractor
John Deere tractor vs. train - GIF
Custom John Deere tailgate - photos
John Deere combine lawnmower made from Simplicity mower

----------

EnginePaul (Sep 28, 2019),

HobieDave (Apr 10, 2020),

Miloslav (Sep 27, 2019),

Seedtick (Sep 27, 2019),

shopandmath (Oct 17, 2019)

----------


## Frank S

This in now only limited to agg. but the mining and construction industry as well. And not just the green goblins but Yellow red orange Blue and every other color of machine manufactures. A few years ago I was doing some welding repairs on a friend's excavator when he asked me to take a look at a fuel leak it had. I told him what parts we needed Cat sold him the parts then after installing them the machine refused run he and I messed with it and messed with it He knew that I used to rebuild the older versions very part we had just replaced. I called a guy in the service depart to find out what I may had done wrong. The first words out of his mouth were you have to bring the machine in so it can be reprogramed to accept the new fuel system parts. 
Things are no longer plug an play for just about everything. 
I asked him if I could connect my laptop to it and get a disk and do the programing myself. OH sure you can all you need to do is buy the interface module and cables and a $10,000.00 user license then your laptop can be used to do MINOR programing but the machine still wont function properly until it is interconnected with Caterpillar's data system. But you didn't hear this from me he said if you just need to get it started to track it onto a trailer do this and this and this that will let the machine start and have enough power to track itself on the trailer this is what our field tech have to do to bring machines in for repairs.
we got it running but in my opinion every computer in every construction machine that controls the engine and running functions should be wrapped in thermite and torched

----------

EnginePaul (Sep 28, 2019),

HobieDave (Apr 10, 2020),

IAMSatisfied (Sep 28, 2019),

Scotty12 (Sep 27, 2019)

----------


## CharlesWaugh

Nerf just came out with DRM protected darts for their guns. No joke. 
Their guns won't work with third-party darts. 
Same issue applies.

----------


## madokie

another reason to DVD !!!!!!! (dont vote dem)..the republicans and trump recently has to get all over the EPA,, because the epa was trying to stop junkyards from selling cars to racers to make race cars out of because they might not have all the emision control equipment on them !!! and the EPA thought that the racers would build a race car without all the proper emission control equipment on it.!!!!!

----------


## CharlesWaugh

Madokie,
That's a different issue altogether: emission controls, enforced solely by the Feds.
Right To Repair is driven by the corporations who want to control every single bit and byte of the market and our lives and spend zillions lobbying the gov't to block regular folks. 
It's not a DEM vs. GOP issue, it's the stupidious DRM and CMCA laws. 
Gotta change 'em!

----------

EnginePaul (Sep 28, 2019),

greyhoundollie (Jan 16, 2020),

nova_robotics (Feb 23, 2021)

----------


## Frank S

It all can be boiled down to the folks who wear neckties and suits If neckties were banned then their brains could get oxygen. if suits were banned then the rest of their body could move more freely then they could actually do something besides just sit on their butts and make up things that are useless to the real world.
get out and get dirt under their fingernails or leave everyone alone

----------

baja (Sep 28, 2019),

greyhoundollie (Jan 16, 2020),

MeJasonT (Sep 28, 2019),

Philip Davies (Sep 30, 2019)

----------


## MeJasonT

I know i bang on about skills shortages - a lot.
If you don't have young kids fixing cars they don't grow up to be rocket engineers.
Academics cant fix bugger all, they lack practical skills - am i alone in thinking this.
Point being kids cant fix cars anymore because of the computer blocking the possibilities of them making repairs

Unfortunately the suits are not listening, the politicians are not listening and industry is not listening. we need a spark of energy fed into the suits preferably connected to the grid, the proverbial rocket up the arse.

Cars have gone down the same route even to the extent that the light bulbs are CAN Bus enabled, seriously. 
A printer for your PC, you pay a fair price for it then pay the same every month just for ink (which happens to be nothing more than vegetable dye and priced at £30 for 7 grams), A set of cartridges for my current printer is £54 - the printer cost £150.
Its cheaper to throw the printer away every few months just to get the free start up cartridges, but wait if i dispose of the old one what am i doing to the planet.
Printers never used to cost much more than they do now. The cherry on the cake has to be the printer ink agreements where they monitor your printer on your behalf and send you new ink every month on a contract. If you happen to be hard up one month and haven't used the printer much you end up paying a direct debit charge for bloody ink you don't want or need. 

Its all about making money, unfortunately we are made to need their products. Take computers for example, if you don't have one in the UK you can no longer (or find it extremely difficult) to access services, pay bills or ask for customer support. It has got to the stupidity that yesterday we received a census questionnaire from the government which said if we had difficulty using the internet to fill out the census form or would like a paper copy we could apply for one online ? Thank god we have gun laws or the UK would be like the wild west.

I am a great fan of open source and freeware, this movement has given us (the people) the ability to build our own 3D printers and Drones. it has taken less than five years for the government to start legislating against the freedom and creativity of the people. With 3D printers its the concern over plastic waste and with drones its the flying along side jumbo jets doing in excess of 200mph? Cause everyone owns a military drone capable of such flight. Seen one of their drones its the size of a cesna.

I must be careful what i'm saying as big brother will be watching - why don't you just chip me and install a tracker already like a dog.

Brexit has proven that democracy is a myth and the suits demand control or change the rule book so they get what they want, are they really acting on our behalf or the dollar sign.

I support the guys in Nebraska, Its getting to a point where we can no longer earn a living we are simply working to keep others in the life they are accustomed to and just to make sure we are not making a little on the side they simply create a need and then make the product unavoidable. This is not capitalism its piracy, theft, slavery.

I have also noticed that everything has a basic starting price (this will be in sterling, sorry)
Broadband £30 ish a month
Landline telephone £30 ish a month
Mobile phone contract £30 ish/ avg a month
Sky Television - package starting from - you guessed it £30 a month

Some clever little Sht has decided that our disposable income per week is £30 ish per week and figures we will use at least some if not all of the listed services. 
There are only so many bites of the apple you can take until its all gone. But wait one of the companies challenging right to repair Microsoft is now wanting you and i to use our computer via a subscription service, can you guess how much they want.
The idea of everything on subscription is not a bad thing if you consider what its supposed to provide, customer service, instant repair or renewal, unfortunately the benefits don't happen. John Deere tractors are basically giving you a subscription to tractors, the alternative to ownership of your tractor is leasing of course.
That's it in a nutshell

----------

EnginePaul (Sep 28, 2019),

greyhoundollie (Jan 16, 2020)

----------


## MeJasonT

Just watch what happens with electric cars they are already tying you into a lease with batteries. they predict that every tri-annual service will require a complete battery replacement costing in the region of £1500 to £2000. Add that to the cars depreciation value of £1200 per year. That's 5 grand, currently what i spend every 10 years on a second hand car. i would have to save up for 40 years to afford a cheap electric car and after 3 years wouldn't be able to afford it. 
i'm sure the production of sulphuric acid for the batteries and plastics to manufacture the batteries will be good for the atmosphere not to mention the waste they will produce is good for the planet
if i buy a second hand electric gar will i get new batteries included or will i end up with a huge bill to get it on the road.
which prat thought that was a good idea.
why not retrofit old cars with electric engines and associated systems
whats happens in major accidents when the whole of the belly pan of your car is one massive sulphuric acid bath ? (where they are locating the battery packs on some cars)

----------

greyhoundollie (Jan 16, 2020)

----------


## baja

> This in now only limited to agg. but the mining and construction industry as well. And not just the green goblins but Yellow red orange Blue and every other color of machine manufactures. A few years ago I was doing some welding repairs on a friend's excavator when he asked me to take a look at a fuel leak it had. I told him what parts we needed Cat sold him the parts then after installing them the machine refused run he and I messed with it and messed with it He knew that I used to rebuild the older versions very part we had just replaced. I called a guy in the service depart to find out what I may had done wrong. The first words out of his mouth were you have to bring the machine in so it can be reprogramed to accept the new fuel system parts. 
> Things are no longer plug an play for just about everything. 
> I asked him if I could connect my laptop to it and get a disk and do the programing myself. OH sure you can all you need to do is buy the interface module and cables and a $10,000.00 user license then your laptop can be used to do MINOR programing but the machine still wont function properly until it is interconnected with Caterpillar's data system. But you didn't hear this from me he said if you just need to get it started to track it onto a trailer do this and this and this that will let the machine start and have enough power to track itself on the trailer this is what our field tech have to do to bring machines in for repairs.
> we got it running but in my opinion every computer in every construction machine that controls the engine and running functions should be wrapped in thermite and torched



Add International to that list

----------

greyhoundollie (Jan 16, 2020)

----------


## Frank S

Back when the average truck farms had fields in the range of 80 acres each. Equipment also averaged in the 100 to 200 drawbar horsepower range you didn't need GPS to tell you where you were in the field or satellite imagery to spot low yield spots. the equipment was in general repairable by folks who had a good mechanical aptitude IE the farmer or his sons & daughters. the thought of entering into a contract where they needed to pay $$$$$$ each year to maintain their equipment was unheard of. the smarter farmers knew about crop rotation to preserve the productivity of the land without the need of some agronomist coming out and taking soil samples to what nutrients and minerals were lacking in their soils. 
But as we say the world moved on. Demands for higher and higher yields stressing the soil to the point of no return without the interjection of more and more artificial means, Equipment began to increase in size requiring the fields to be combined into ever larger tracts of land because it was not feasible economically to even turn the huge equipment around in smaller fields due to the amount of end row land required. I have a friend in Minnesota whose family farms now have fields in the 1000's of acre range which are miles and miles long and wide some of their equipment might cost upwards of 2 to 5 million dollars per piece and only get used 2 months at a time once or twice a year the rest of the time it is parked inside of a climate controlled building not just a shed with a roof and wind walls to prevent exposure to snow and the ultraviolet rays of the summer sun. They don't own just 1 or 2 of anything they own or rather they pay yearly for the privilege of using and storing whole fleets of equipment. During planting or harvesting seasons breakdowns are not an option. He or rather his family out of shear necessity must employ a staff of certified well qualified repair persons since taking their equipment back to a dealer would be not only cost prohibitive completely impossible in some cases as some of the equipment would require a tear down into several smaller assemblies just to transport it then be hauled to a port and shipped to places like Sweden where it was made. 
He is the exception in the go big or go home class of farmers. Folks like my cousins family farms up in Colorado where they only have 12,000 acres can't afford to lease or own large fleets of every type of equipment for their operation so Where Chris's family may own 10, 20 or more of one type machine Gary might only have 3 or 4 or possibly only 1 and have to hire a lot of their tillage and harvesting done. When 1 of Gary's combines breaks down he is at the mercy of you guessed it John deere which in itself wouldn't be all that bad providing his was the only equipment to ever need repairs. 
Even if a large dealership has a sizeable staff of repair persons those 2 times a year which are the most critical to not only the farmers but every person who depends on produce of food stuffs being readily available on the supermarket shelves depend on the dealerships ability to preform the repairs quickly, but what happens when they are overwhelmed with simple breakdowns? Things that the farmers could diagnose themselves then determine if the equipment should be sent in or a mobile repairman be called out. This is what would make the most sense to me. The same should go for cars trucks and household appliances in my opinion.

----------

greyhoundollie (Jan 16, 2020)

----------


## MeJasonT

Big farmers got it - we had 145 acres and was the 2nd largest farm in a 5 mile radius. There were some 15 other farms around us, when foot and mouth struck the area was only left with 3 farms locally. sadly there are only two farms left (the two largest both milk 1000 cows each) we used to have 300 and our direct neighbour just under 300. The idea of driving half way across the state to get to the other side of the farm is mind blowing.
We only ever bought 1 new tractor back in 1982 it was a 70hp Ford 6600 - it got a new engine within weeks of us purchasing it as ford had issues and recalled the engines, technically its a 5610. I am now the proud owner of said vehicle now our farm has gone.
my brother still has the ford 6810 and ford 7600, non of this jolly green giant crap. we led silage with four 5 tonne silage trailer into a clamp and used a new holland 719 forager. At barley time we hired a volvo bm combine with a 12ft cut. The remaining farms around us now use contractors for everything they in turn don't own a damn thing they simply lease everything. We used to spend a week cutting 50 acres of silage now they are picking up an entire farm in a day. Sad really i miss the banter at harvest time.

----------

greyhoundollie (Jan 13, 2020)

----------


## Frank S

My grandpa bought a 1959 John Deere at an estate auction in 61 we called the Dear John because he paid almost nothing for it and never got it home. Too big for us to haul on his old B61 Mack and trailer he decided to road it the 22 miles home the transmission went out in the first 2 miles so it was hauled to the dealership Turned out all 8010s were under a recall notice for transmission problems it was sent from the dealership to where ever and when it came back it had been upgraded then rebadged as 8020 to prove the upgrades had been done. Not that a stupid badge meant anything on its own but that was how the big green did things.
So an virtually no cost to my grandpa we wound up with a virtually brand new tractor complete with full warranty, which he made sure to use it to the fullest extent as long as the warranty was in effect. Turned out to be a great piece of equipment and about the largest thing in anyone's field for miles around much better than the TD24 dozer he wanted the Dear John to replace

----------

greyhoundollie (Jan 13, 2020),

MeJasonT (Sep 29, 2019),

Scotty12 (Jan 13, 2020)

----------


## MadTrapper

Thank you for this information. I own VW and Audi and yes there is a minefield of competing Eastern european software sources to access my own car.
Stealerships are far more numerous than good honest mechanics. Just the way things are going. I like the comments on suits!

----------

greyhoundollie (Jan 13, 2020)

----------


## Jon

> Here’s a picture of the highest selling 30 year old Tractor at auction this year…a 1989 model JD 4955 MFWD with 2225 hours sold for $71,000 on a 2/23/19 farm auction in Saint Mary’s, OH.








> Tractors manufactured in the late 1970s and 1980s are some of the hottest items in farm auctions across the Midwest these days — and it’s not because they’re antiques.
> 
> Cost-conscious farmers are looking for bargains, and tractors from that era are well-built and totally functional, and aren’t as complicated or expensive to repair as more recent models that run on sophisticated software.



More:

https://discuss.machinerypete.com/t/...not-today/1439
For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now a hot commodity - StarTribune.com

----------

greyhoundollie (Jan 13, 2020),

Little Rabbit (Jan 19, 2020)

----------


## Frank S

> More:
> 
> https://discuss.machinerypete.com/t/...not-today/1439
> For tech-weary Midwest farmers, 40-year-old tractors now a hot commodity - StarTribune.com



Yep and they wont shut themselves down because they lost connection with the internet or missed a regen cycle because of being in the field trying to complete a harvest before a storm. crops cannot wait 3 to 15 days for a dealership to send out a service tech who will probably tell the farmer once he arrives and has a look at the piece of equipment that it will have to be transported to the dealership to re calibrate the computer that controls the tire inflation and the windshield wipers because it is not allowed to be done in the field without a complete diagnostic 
You may think I'm joking but according to some of the cotton farmers things have really gotten so bad that you don't dare operate a piece of equipment with the cab doors open when the air conditioner goes out for fear of the onboard computer sending a fault code that will shut down the machine because the computer overheated

----------

greyhoundollie (Jan 13, 2020),

Little Rabbit (Jan 19, 2020)

----------


## greyhoundollie

"Ditto" I have a 1974 Ford 5600 and a 1973 David Brown 996. If I can't work on it myself I don't own it. Yeah they both break down from time to time. But the parts don't cost $1000.00 +++++ I shop for parts locally with a man who still uses all of the "books" to find part numbers not a computer. He has been writing himself notes on each page in his books for 50 years. He gets me the right part the first time he orders, And if he thinks it is too expensive he looks for another source. I can call him on Sunday morning because it is going to rain and I will loose my hay crop. He will get the part from his shop and drive it too me 25 miles.

The guys with the $200,000 tractors and $350,000 combines still break down as often as I do some times once a day. No one brings them parts on Sunday. They have to wait until Monday and Schedule an appointment.

----------


## IAMSatisfied

> Yep and they wont shut themselves down because they lost connection with the internet or missed a regen cycle because of being in the field trying to complete a harvest before a storm. crops cannot wait 3 to 15 days for a dealership to send out a service tech who will probably tell the farmer once he arrives and has a look at the piece of equipment that it will have to be transported to the dealership to re calibrate the computer that controls the tire inflation and the windshield wipers because it is not allowed to be done in the field without a complete diagnostic 
> You may think I'm joking but according to some of the cotton farmers things have really gotten so bad that you don't dare operate a piece of equipment with the cab doors open when the air conditioner goes out for fear of the onboard computer sending a fault code that will shut down the machine because the computer overheated



And to make matters worse, the companies that manufacture these pieces of farm equipment that require proprietary software have aggressively gone after (i.e., legal threats,etc.) anyone trying to repair these on their own (not unlike how Tesla motors has treated those who attempt to repair their own cars, and how Apple computer has tried to shut down or otherwise hinder aftermarket repair services).

----------

nova_robotics (Feb 23, 2021)

----------


## Frank S

> And to make matters worse, the companies that manufacture these pieces of farm equipment that require proprietary software have aggressively gone after (i.e., legal threats,etc.) anyone trying to repair these on their own (not unlike how Tesla motors has treated those who attempt to repair their own cars, and how Apple computer has tried to shut down or otherwise hinder aftermarket repair services).



Well if they didn't manufacture inferior products they would not have to be so paranoid with their proprietary software's and parts

----------

baja (Jan 14, 2020)

----------


## MeJasonT

That also goes for microsoft and google when it comes to being paranoid about protecting inferior products.

----------


## MeJasonT

Is anyone following the John Deere jailbreak story. does it still have the same momentum.

----------


## Frank S

Well I don't know anything about how the farmers are getting on with hot wired programing on their JD equipment but I do know of a guy in this county who sold his less than 2 year old cotton picker for less than he owed on it just to get out from under the constant hassles of having to call out a Tech they don't even call the repairmen any more then had his 2 older pickers refurbished says 2 of them together cost less to run than the 1 new one due to the amount of down time it was costing him.

----------

greyhoundollie (Jan 16, 2020)

----------


## MeJasonT

Under this current economic global uncertanty and Trumps desire to put America first, you would think that JD's attitude would be starting to hurt them by now.
Am i correct in thinking its only JD doing it. I have not heard anything similar from the likes of Case International or New Holland Ford.

----------


## Frank S

> Under this current economic global uncertanty and Trumps desire to put America first, you would think that JD's attitude would be starting to hurt them by now.
> Am i correct in thinking its only JD doing it. I have not heard anything similar from the likes of Case International or New Holland Ford.



The reason why JD is more in your face than the others is JD has pretty much garnered the market with such a wide diverse equipment lineup pretty much like Caterpillar used to think they were the top dog in the construction and mining industries. But actually every manufacture is having their own issues with the tier4 compliant garbage laws. 
Things like simple water pumps only have to sit there and pump water to or from one place to another have to be in constant connection with the interweb to tell it how to preform if for some reason the connection goes down the machine becomes self aware and goes into limp mode like trucks on the highway missing a regen cycle or catching fire and burning the driver alive while going down the highway.
I have a friend in Mn. who is one of the owners of Olson farms they buy their 750,000.00 combines from Sweden and have a fleet of them these machines may get used only 3 months a year the rest of the time they are housed in hanger sized barns. during the off season they have their equipment completely gone over from end to end top to bottom to try and insure there will be no break downs during harvest time. 
These mammoth mega farms like his can afford to do things like that but smaller farms by comparison like my cousins who own the Mathes family farms in Co. who farm maybe only10,000 acres are finding that it can be cheaper on them to hire most of their tillage and harvesting done by being part of co-ops all of the farmer's equipment becomes leased out to the roving tillage & harvesting managers. People like a neighbor of mine who farm 1000 to 3000 acres don't have the means to do those things like the larger farmers do and certainly nothing like the mega farms can do and guys way down the ladder in the 100 to 500 acre range or smaller are much better off buying older equipment even though their repairs and replacement part costs can at times be devastating to their bottom line.
One day all equipment will probably be much like the fictional SKYNET in the terminator movies all because of the ever increasing restrictions of environmental concerns. Once that happens it will be a short step to total control over the population of the world just flip a switch or upload a code and billions will starve in a year.
But that is just my opinion

----------


## greyhoundollie

Every family farmer out there knows that when the tractor, combine, picker etc breaks down it is ALWAYS in the furthest place in the field, usually across a gully or some other condition that makes taking care of the problem extra hard. Us folks who use older equipment are a little bit blessed with the fact that, our old tractor, combine etc, usually is able to limp out of the field or at least to a place where it is more accessible to make a repair.

When the modern million dollar equipment wont run, it wont run even a little bit. And worse it can't be repaired where it sits because it needs the computers reprogrammed in town. The field technician who shows up to assess the problem doesn't want to walk across the muddy field and get his $1,200 cowboy boots dirty. His first step is telephone to start scheduling large equipment to pick up/pull/carry your tractor out of the field and to the city for repair. Before he has hung up his cell phone he has already spent several thousand dollars of your money.

----------


## greyhoundollie

Well said Charles

----------


## jdurand

I designed some of the equipment for smart motors, but it was only for diagnosis (short trip from there to build in). You would connect an accelerometer and thermocouple to a motor and then with your phone you would connect with the service center. The tech there would have you change speeds while looking at the live results. He could then tell you if the bearings were bad, good for another month, or all is well.

A certain famous electric car company based near here was using some of the gear I designed, the last I heard.

----------

greyhoundollie (Jan 16, 2020)

----------


## Jon

I'm hearing that instead of having to purchase a new tractor with proprietary software, people are reverting to much older technology.

Fullsize image: https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/h...e_fullsize.jpg

----------

baja (Jul 19, 2020),

IAMSatisfied (Jul 18, 2020),

jimfols (Jul 18, 2020),

Scotty12 (Jul 18, 2020)

----------


## IAMSatisfied

> I'm hearing that instead of having to purchase a new tractor with proprietary software, people are reverting to much older technology.
> 
> Fullsize image: https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/h...e_fullsize.jpg



Too funny!

Is that the Lone Ranger's wife in the background?

----------


## marksbug

if they made it out of sheep the farmer would never stop screwing and tinkering with it .

----------

MeJasonT (Jul 19, 2020)

----------


## MeJasonT

marksbug - oh the old ones are the best

----------


## Jon

Looks like John Deere is back in the hot seat for breaking a promise to make tractor repair tools and software available to the public.

Article in Vice: https://www.vice.com/en/article/v7m8...repair-it-lied

Full report is here: https://uspirg.org/sites/pirg/files/...dlights_V3.pdf

----------

KustomsbyKent (Feb 23, 2021),

nova_robotics (Feb 23, 2021),

PauloOliveira (Feb 24, 2021),

rlm98253 (Feb 23, 2021)

----------


## NortonDommi

I think that ALL manufactures should be forced to upload ALL workshop manuals to the interweb. Too often dealers retain workshop manuals that should be included with machinery, often they will refuse to identify their suppliers when an issue arises that they are not prepared to address or when they have switched to another supplier leaving previous customers with no recourse to information/parts. Many dealers of all kinds of machinery will also refuse to even order workshop manuals/parts manuals or they will demand exorbitant prices for such items.
Some manufactures even prosecute anyone who uploads manuals for their product. This can be avoided if you are aware before purchase but is still of no use to small repair services without factory affiliation.

----------

EnginePaul (Mar 5, 2021),

nova_robotics (Feb 23, 2021),

rlm98253 (Feb 23, 2021),

will52100 (Feb 23, 2021)

----------


## TrickieDickie

Much of today's vehicles we all drive are heavily dependent upon multiple computers which require proper diagnosis. I have a 10 year old GMC that has been very reliable and a 56 F100 that I can completely take care of. I dread the day I have to purchase a later model vehicle.

----------


## Hoosiersmoker

Our company purchased a $2.5 million dollar printing press (nearly 15 years ago). I immediately went looking for the manuals to set up the PMs. I contacted the mfg and was told the manuals (15 of them) would cost us and additional $5000 in print or $2000 digital. After a very convincing discussion with one of their "higher-ups" we decided that everyone in our industry didn't have to know they'd tried to bilk that extra money out of us for something that should have come with the press! They threw in the digital copy "for free"

----------

EnginePaul (Mar 5, 2021),

marksbug (Feb 24, 2021),

NortonDommi (Feb 27, 2021)

----------


## jdurand

> Much of today's vehicles we all drive are heavily dependent upon multiple computers which require proper diagnosis. I have a 10 year old GMC that has been very reliable and a 56 F100 that I can completely take care of. I dread the day I have to purchase a later model vehicle.



One of the things I look forward to is our new car will be a Lada. Less of the high-tech everything that Western cars. Still has some, can even order it with built-in cellular data and phone. I won't be getting that model, don't need BT, WiFi, or iThing.

----------


## metric_taper

In my opinion, the only real improvement to the 4 cycle gas engine was electronic points.
I had a 1987 Chevy Sprint with a natural aspirating carburetor, it got over 57MPG (3cyl 1 liter). It did have electronic points. The next model was a 1998 Chevy Metro with throttle body fuel injection. Fuel economy was 40MPG (and CA emission compliance). They did add a bit of steel weight to improve crash safety.
I understand that on larger V8 engines used on trucks there was an improvement of fuel economy with electronic controls.

----------


## NortonDommi

100% with you on electronic distributors or add on electronic switching. 2nd would be variable fuel pressure regulators ala Cagill. I have seen some amazing results with these including some I didn't believe until shown proof. One such was I fitted one to a taxi whose owner I knew as a means to save him a few bucks while he saved for an LPG conversion,(which I had talked him into),he came back a month later with fuel saving percentages that I couldn't accept until he showed me his log book. Turns out that during Winter he sat around waiting for fares with the engine idling and most of his Winter driving was inner city. These are for carburettored engines only with no computers stuffing up tuning.

----------

metric_taper (Mar 1, 2021)

----------


## Jon

John Deere finally backed down on this issue. Looks like the American Farm Bureau Federation put enough pressure on them that they're trying to avoid any Right to Repair legislation. They issued a Memorandum of Understanding here: https://www.fb.org/files/AFBF_John_Deere_MOU.pdf

There's enough flexibility in there that John Deere can still wiggle out of some requirements to let farmers repair their equipment, but issuing this memorandum is a decent indication that John Deere recognizes that preventing farmers from repairing their tractors is not a smart hill to die on.



More: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-64206913

----------

nova_robotics (Jan 10, 2023)

----------


## metric_taper

So is John Deere going to provide all the specifications for the serial OBD communication protocol they have? Pretty much requires that to repair most of their engine driven equipment. I see the document allows farmers access, but at what cost for manuals and diagnostic equipment. I don't think farmers won anything here.
Still need legislation for all manufactures to publish any proprietary diagnostic access, so 3rd parties can design the equipment.

On a slightly different note, The Russian invasion of Ukraine, they stole John Deere farm equipment, This equipment was at dealerships, John Deere was able to disable the equipment as it's somehow internet connect with what I would guess is cell phone enabled.

----------


## CharlesWaugh

The key provision is A.5, as follows:

_ 5. This MOU shall not be interpreted or construed to require a Manufacturer to: a) divulge trade secrets, proprietary or confidential information; b) allow owners or Independent Repair Facilities to override safety features or emissions controls or to adjust Agricultural Equipment power levels; or, c) violate any federal, state, or local laws or regulations._ 

Yeah, the DMCA is still in effect, so they can hide behind it all they want.

See the Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) here:
https://www.fb.org/files/AFBF_John_Deere_MOU.pdf

----------

nova_robotics (Jan 10, 2023)

----------


## Toolmaker51

Another reason to uphold Shakespeare's adage; Kill all the lawyers.

----------


## Frank S

Then you will find guys like me and my neighbor who will eventually figure out a work around to rip all of the garbage out of vehicles and equipment that is totally unnecessary to make an engine run A gasoline engine requires a fuel/air mixture, compression, spark, and exhaust, the engine itself does not care how it gets these things as long as it gets them. A diesel engine needs it just a little differently the air is compressed fuel is injected under pressure at the appropriate time to cause combustion and exhaust. I know where there are 50-year-old engines still running that will pass almost all emissions standards in California of all places providing you can feed them with the correct quality fuel and do so with a 15 to 20% better efficiency than an engine of today's manufacture with all of the emission controls in place

----------


## Toolmaker51

and there wouldn't be empty DEF containers littering the highways?

----------


## MeJasonT

Now to get companies like Haas to give in to right to repair.
Having an older Haas mill is good in the sense that they really cant tell you what to do with it but when parts are scarce and they insist on charging what amounts to more than the machines values to come out and change a part (that only they can do ?). At least Tormach are a little more flexible. I don't need haas to come out and change the oil or change a light bulb but if you go on the Haas FB forum there are plenty of brainwashed machine owners who think the big machine dealer is the only person who can do repairs. I have made the argument several times - "WE are meant to be Engineers", if you don't know what to do then yes people are their to help you from the big glitzy saleroom but that should never take away a persons ability to repair. So in my view any flexibility from one Big manufacturer will hopefully filter down to all. These COP and WEF directives should be pusing for repairable goods and opening up the self repair option but sadly not, they are still hell bent on the capitalist model. Trying to save the environment my A***. Those lovely left wing citizens love their directives and will worship any environmental experiment without actually seeing the full gravity of its effects. When steel production, oil and coal extraction are all eradicated by the panic people then so will the manufacturing jobs, we cant all work behind a desk not to mention we need raw materials and manufacturing to build solar panels, wind turbines, nuke power stations etc. The trick is to convince the cancel culture that you have to engineer out problems.

----------


## MeJasonT

To continue - The trick is to convince the cancel culture that you have to engineer out problems.
We wont let the world end, we have had some experience of fixing global disaster in the past - like the hole in the o zone.
If the desk jockeys don't trust engineers then im afraid their verbal burbeling wont make parts, someone somewhere has to get their hands dirty. 
Gunter Thunderpants and the rest of the eco warriors are a total waste of oxygen never mind an unnecessary production of CO2.
We need right to repair as a major part of saving the planet, recycling als plays a big part in that. How many of us own old workshop machinery, we should be vary careful they don't target those as old dirty unreliable machines build in a time of gluttony of carbon resources destroying the planet. You think im kidding, they glued themselves to old oil paintings from the masters in the likes of the V&A in London because oil paint was used, they ere painted back in the 1700's. To me the right to repair should be forced high on the agenda and yet our governments don't mention it - but they do want us all to have an electric car by 2030. Clearly no one is consulting engineers when it comes to the climate crisis.

----------


## MeJasonT

Please go and read up about the 15 minute city (their already is one in the US and Oxford in the UK to follow in 2024/26) and 

. Its more and more looking like a scene from Total Recall with Arny Wetshisnickers (like the guy just playing with his name, its called humour, notice i didn't say the same about Gunter). Wont be long now, the Covid chip inoculation will have us all GPS tracked and the sleeping nanobots will be floating around our blood stream just waiting for the kill command. We are already at the point of a global credit system, we will get 100 credits and have to plan which services we need from week to week. Fusion 360 is 30 credits, cable tv is 30 credits, the lease car is 35 credits, if we plan on eating and heating our homes i can see a small problem. If this is a conspiracy theory then why is it being implemented already. We cant make steel in the UK anymore, with the war in Ukraine aluminium production is already net zero until the conflict ends. We will be recycling metals until the Russian war on Ukraine is over, If the Russians succeed I've used Russian steel umm. If we like the freedom and way of life we enjoy we need to use our next vote very wisely. Viva Right to Repair

----------

