# Tool Talk >  WWII hand-powered lathe from Liberty Ship - photo

## Jon

WWII hand-powered Paxton Mitchell lathe from a Liberty ship.



Description:




> Hand Powered WWII Liberty Ship Metal Lathe made by Paxton Mitchell. These lathes were made in 1945. Came with the original paperwork. Each lathe comes with: (1) Packing Chuck for Boring 3 3/4 Packing. (1) Packing Chuck for Boring 1 5/8 Packing. (1) Spare Feed Nut. (2) Wrenches for Above. Wrenches are specific to the parts on the lathe. Weighs 154 pounds. New old stock. Never been used, but some surface rust from sitting around.



$300 from HarryEpstein.com: https://www.harryepstein.com/index.p...tal-lathe.html

Liberty ships were the iconic American WWII ship; over 2,700 of them were produced, which I believe is the most ships ever made to a single design. Liberty ships represented the American WWII manufacturing drive that formed the war-winning trinity of: American manufacturing, Russian lives, and British intelligence. These guys:



Does anyone know more about these lathes? Why were they hand-powered? Were these intended as general use lathes, or were they made with specific tasks in mind?



Previously:

video of WWII German military helmets repurposed into colanders
Leonardo da Vinci lathe build
WWII Churchill tank converted into mine clearer
Giant hedge cutter made from WWII AEC Matador

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Scotsman Hosie (Feb 23, 2019),

Seedtick (Sep 26, 2017)

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## mklotz

It seems to be meant to perform a specific turning job (boring packing from the description), as opposed to a general purpose lathe. Liberty ships weren't expected to survive more that a couple of trans-Atlantic trips which might explain why they didn't want to "waste" scarce resources for a motor to power something that might (?) only see occasional use.

Actually, from its appearance, calling it a lathe seems to be something of a stretch. It looks more like a Cole drill adapted to boring specific sizes of packing.

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Frank S (Sep 26, 2017),

Jon (Sep 26, 2017),

rlm98253 (Sep 26, 2017),

Scotsman Hosie (Feb 23, 2019)

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## Frank S

Liberty ships as with nearly all military navel vessels larger than landing craft possessed a full complement machine shop any hand operated tools such as the Paxton Mitchel would have been used for special purposes like boring out re-poured Babbitt bearing shells or making wooden bearings. The ads and other places mention the Paxton Mitchel as specifically having a packing bore chuck, which could have meant a multitude of things. We most commonly associate the term packing with materials used in a stuffing box around the propeller shaft but that would have probably been flax rope but there were stuffing boxes Babbitt bearings and wooden bearings used all over the vessels so this may have been used for a multitude of small tasks which did not warrant using the powered machines.

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Jon (Sep 26, 2017),

Lee Bell (Sep 25, 2019),

rlm98253 (Sep 26, 2017),

Scotsman Hosie (Feb 23, 2019)

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## Frank S

Here is a photo of the machine shop aboard the John W brown liberty ship


Source Free Photo of The machine shop with tools aboard the SS John W. Brown

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## mklotz

The more I look at it , the more it looks like a Cole drill mechanism. The boring bar on the end, once adjusted for depth of cut, doesn't seem to have any mechanism for moving it into the work, presumably held in one of the collet like cups on the end of the shaft. This means that the shaft itself has to provide the feed motion.

Note the mechanism with the handle between the two shaft bearings. I can't tell from the photograph but it looks as if the section of the shaft under this mechanism is possibly threaded.

If it is, then the use would go something like this... Mount packing nut in suitably sized "packing chuck" on end of shaft. Adjust boring bar for depth of cut. Lift handle to disengage the "feed nut" from the threaded shaft and push shaft forward until packing nut contacts boring bar. Drop handle to engage feed nut with threaded shaft. Turning the handwheel will both revolve the packing nut against the boring bar as well as driving it forward as the threads on the shaft turn against the feed nut.

The fact that a "spare feed nut" is supplied with the unit further points to this concept of use.

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Frank S (Sep 26, 2017),

rlm98253 (Sep 26, 2017),

Toolmaker51 (Oct 2, 2017)

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## Jon

Here's the huge fullsize image. 3,800px wide so you can see more details:

https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/h...e_fullsize.jpg

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Frank S (Sep 26, 2017),

Scotsman Hosie (Feb 23, 2019)

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## Ron B

Liberty Ships were all equiped with triple expansion Steam engines built by kaiser Frazer and with any large steam plant ,every pipe, every piston rod has a gland joint filled with asbestos square packing but paxton Mitchel were Steam engine builders from the late 1900's and had a mettalic packing of thier own desgn .This tool was used to trim the packing in spare gland nuts ,so this tool would see use on every voyage . The paxton Mitchell packing was popular but has been superceded completely today. The company also cast large parts for the steam engines and won several high awards including an E for getting three stars for excellence in a row. NWHS VG-1578C-VGN Mech Dwg

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crazypj (Sep 27, 2017),

Jon (Sep 27, 2017),

Scotsman Hosie (Feb 23, 2019)

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## Jon

Here's one of those triple expansion steam engines:



Interestingly, over the 100+ years that Paxton Mitchell has been in business, they've ultimately moved to the production of "Snoopers":




More on Paxton Mitchell history:



More: Home Page - Paxton-Mitchell Co., LLC

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Scotsman Hosie (Feb 23, 2019)

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## Frank S

As the industry and machinery moves on so must a company If old man Henery Ford had had his way his famous Model T would have never been replaced with the Model A

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## Shiseiji

The item has been identified on other boards https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/...d.php?t=207138 as a PT Boat prop shaft packing cutter. I understand that operating in coral reef areas, a bent prop shaft wasn't unusual. How they straightened them I have no idea, but the tool was used to fit a new packing around the shaft. 

During other discussions about the item, I learned that Liberty (and Victory) ships had a basic machine shop, a member of a group posted pictures of a Liberty Ship shop with a lathe and drill press. No idea how milling tasks were handled. 

Ron

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## Frank S

Ron in this picture also from the John W Brown liberty ship machine shop on the left side you can see a Bridgeport mill it looks to be a J head 

the Lathe is Southbend

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## Ron B

Yes, Most ocean going ships have a lathe and drill etc just in case :Angry:  .On container ships you have lots of winches,electric motors,pumps and so on ,and if trouble should strike and you are mid pacific it is up to the ships engineers to remake any parts required. Burt Munro, the man immortilised in the movie,the Worlds fastest indian ,spoke of getting a job as cook on a freighter so he could use the ships machine shop to make pistons and other parts as he sailed to the US from New Zealand.

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## Ron B

> Here's one of those triple expansion steam engines:



 i have seen one of these engines up close, In Klaipeda ,Lithuania. They have a fishing museum at the old Fort where several boats and lots of fishing memorabilia is on display . After WW2 a lot of the libertyships were still tied up in Murmansk as it was too dangerous during the war to come back ,plus the Soviets decided that the ships were part of the deal anyway. They were cut up and their steel and equipment was put to use building a fishing fleet ,hence the steam engine on Display.

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## Jon

Lathe on the USS Missouri, a Virginia-class attack submarine Iowa-class battleship. Fullsize 4,000px wide pic: https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/h...e_fullsize.jpg .






Anyone know about the effect of sea motion on machining? Is it minimized in such a large sub? Worse above the water surface?

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Seedtick (Oct 2, 2017)

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## mklotz

That's a monstrous lathe. I guesstimated the height of the crossfeed wheel above the deck at 28" and used that to scale the overall length of the lathe. It came out close to thirteen feet!

The marking on the headstock says Lodge and Shipley. Their 24 x 120 would be about that length and looks very similar to the one on the ship...

Lodge and Shipley

Note the crank below the right end of the tailstock. I believe that's a means of moving what must be a very heavy tailstock using the lathe rack. You can see it also on the picture of the lathe on the boat.

Here's a video of a similar size Lodge and Shipley taking a 1/4" cut in steel...




It's all very overwhelming for us hobbyists with Unimats, Sherlines and 12 x 24 imports.

I doubt a lathe like that would notice any ship motion. In fact, the lathe probably provides structural stiffening for the boat.

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Toolmaker51 (Oct 2, 2017)

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## Toolmaker51

If [and in defense of the Navy's dependence on machine tools] ability of machine tools to perform as intended have few dependencies; steady amperage and properly mounted to a solid foundation. I can't see any reason a lathe or any machine tool couldn't hang on the wall and run correctly, except the lubrication system. Heavy turnings would be an issue, as the weight would be out of plane with the bed and feet. Also, lathes in particular, need their main gearshaft to run in it's oilbath, and splash remainder of headstock. Much the same as manual auto transmission.

Marv is correct. The crank adjacent to tailstock is there for exactly that reason. Some use them as a feed for coarse drilling. Some have a gear rack under the ways, others use a 'jack' arrangement and ratchet teeth are cast into the bed between the ways. 
I'm a mill guy, but certain lathes really turn me on. Lodge & Shipley is one of them. Near every machine intended for industrial use has a range of features that suit them to a particular type of work. And NONE do everything well.

And Marv, not surprising you'd find interest in the logging site. One of my favorites.

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## Dr Stan

Breaking news for all you civilians. That lathe is not on a sub, it's on the USS Missouri BB-63 a retired battleship berthed in Pearl Harbor, Hawaii. Which served as the location for the formal surrender of Japan at the end of WWII. BTW, it would never fit on a sub, even one of the boomers.

I have used virtually the exact same lathe on the USS Coral Sea CVA-43 an aircraft carrier of the same vintage and a newer version on the USS Samuel Gompers AD-37 a repair ship.

A simple & quick Google search would have revealed the correct location of the lathe.

BTW, there is another one on the USS Alabama near New Orleans.

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Jon (Oct 2, 2017)

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## mdhatter3

It doesn't matter the angle the machine is at when running as long as it is level to the ships floor. Movement of the ship has no bearing upon the accuracy of the machine.

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## Dr Stan

> It doesn't matter the angle the machine is at when running as long as it is level to the ships floor. Movement of the ship has no bearing upon the accuracy of the machine.



I can attest the movement of the ship has a great deal to do with the accuracy of a machine tool. As the ship flexes so does the MT making it difficult to impossible to hold necessary tolerances. Seems like a lot of civilians who have never put to sea want to put in their 2 cents worth. Bottom line they just flat out don't know what they are talking about.

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## Jon

> Breaking news for all you civilians. That lathe is not on a sub, it's on the USS Missouri BB-63 a retired battleship berthed in Pearl Harbor, Hawaii.



I had the wrong USS Missouri; I just changed the text from Virginia-class attack submarine to Iowa-class battleship, thanks!

Any idea what we have below? Was this the original machine shop, and the above was added in later years?

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## Dr Stan

Probably the original shop. Virtually identical to the ones on the Coral Sea & the Alabama. When you're out in the middle of "the pond" it's a little difficult to get deliveries from McMaster.

One may note the dead center in the rack of tools behind the head of the lathe.

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## Dr Stan

> Ron in this picture also from the John W Brown liberty ship machine shop on the left side you can see a Bridgeport mill it looks to be a J head 
> Attachment 19918
> the Lathe is Southbend 
> Attachment 19919



In all likely hood the Bridgeport is a later addition. WWII destroyers and the like had a lathe with a milling attachment rather than a stand alone mill.

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## Seedtick

> Lathe on the USS Missouri, a Virginia-class attack submarine Iowa-class battleship. Fullsize 4,000px wide pic: https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/h...e_fullsize.jpg .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone know about the effect of sea motion on machining? Is it minimized in such a large sub? Worse above the water surface?




Check out the drill chuck in tail stock of that behemoth of a lathe. Someone had a sense of humor.
Greg

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## Toolmaker51

> Check out the drill chuck in tail stock of that behemoth of a lathe. Greg



Agreed, not even a #14N Jacobs. But in reference to scale, note arm of the radial drill and tilting work table in the foreground. Or the face plate resting near the far end of the lathe. Whether USS Enterprise, a FFG, or a repair ship, even experienced hands are surprised by the range of machine tools and tooling that Machinery Repairmen have access to. It got even better in the yards.
Having referenced it before, I wish I could share pages of the auction catalog from Long Beach Naval Shipyard, CA. I knew that location like back of my hand, still amazes me nearly 20 years later.

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## Frank S

If you will notice there are more than 1 face plates 1 is hiding behind the steady rest and is much smaller in diameter probably just small enough to be used without having to pull the gap bridge and judging by the size of the drill bit it looks to be about 3 1/2 inches or more with a MT 5 or 6 shank 
I have a 2 3/4 " that has the shank turned down from MT 5 to MT 4 it looks huge in my index but that thing is a lot bigger than mine.

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## mklotz

I really wish the Navy had not abandoned the ship naming conventions of WWII - states for battleships, cities for cruisers, fish for submarines, etc.. I'm particularly annoyed by the practice of naming carriers for presidents. IMO, we've never had a president who deserves to have any ship named for him. [I wouldn't mind naming barges after a few of them but that's my limit.]

The Missouri (BB63) is a particularly historic ship and its name should remain singular. The same for all the other Iowa class battleships.

The Iowa (BB61) is now permanently moored as a museum ship here in LA harbor. Unfortunately, when I toured it a few years ago, neither the machine shop or the engine room were open to the public.

It's interesting to me that all the Iowa class ships have been preserved as museums rather than being broken up. Can it be that the Navy thinks there may yet arise more situations where an offshore heavy artillery platform could be useful?

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## Toolmaker51

> I really wish the Navy had not abandoned the ship naming conventions of WWII - states for battleships, cities for cruisers, fish for submarines, etc.. I'm particularly annoyed by the practice of naming carriers for presidents. IMO, we've never had a president who deserves to have any ship named for him. [I wouldn't mind naming barges after a few of them but that's my limit.]
> 
> The Missouri (BB63) is a particularly historic ship and its name should remain singular. The same for all the other Iowa class battleships.
> 
> The Iowa (BB61) is now permanently moored as a museum ship here in LA harbor. Unfortunately, when I toured it a few years ago, neither the machine shop or the engine room were open to the public.
> 
> It's interesting to me that all the Iowa class ships have been preserved as museums rather than being broken up. Can it be that the Navy thinks there may yet arise more situations where an offshore heavy artillery platform could be useful?





Some naming conventions have historical significance. However it s time to be on the road for work and a simultaneous interview enroute....so I'll continue when stationary.

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## Dr Stan

> It's interesting to me that all the Iowa class ships have been preserved as museums rather than being broken up. Can it be that the Navy thinks there may yet arise more situations where an offshore heavy artillery platform could be useful?



I certainly hope not. In any case so many nations have missiles capable of taking out large ships such as carriers & battleships at a distance they are obsolete.

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## mklotz

> I certainly hope not. In any case so many nations have missiles capable of taking out large ships such as carriers & battleships at a distance they are obsolete.



The Missouri was used to shell targets and launch missiles as recently as 1991 in occupied Kuwait. Anti-missile defenses become continually more sophisticated and the most recent improvements are always kept secret. Who can say where and how the next small-scale conflict will evolve?

As to the obsolete nature of carriers, I'm sure the Navy will be disappointed to learn that they spent $13 billion on the USS Gerald Ford for no good reason.

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## Frank S

> I certainly hope not. In any case so many nations have missiles capable of taking out large ships such as carriers & battleships at a distance they are obsolete.



That may well be but I can think of several instances in 4 wars where members of my family were sure proud to have them sitting off shore lobbing their munitions and in the last mission their tomahawks My father in WWII & Korea 3 of my uncles in WWII, my eldest first cousin at Con Thien in March of 69 and his nephew in Kuwait in 91 Heck I would have felt more secure on a couple of short incursions in 72 & 73 had the New Jersey been on station myself 
While it is true that a vessel, any vessel for that matter is a sitting duck in the water when it comes to cruse missiles or Ariel bombardment their presents represents a seance of security for ground troops especially when refitted with updated technologies.
However now it is almost possible for any tech savy teenager to create a rudimentary form of Target identification and acquisition tracking device rendering just about anything moving slower than a pleasure yacht in high winds subject to being locked on

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## mklotz

Years ago I worked on the design of fire control systems for high-energy laser weapons. A multi-megawatt laser doesn't have to stare very long into the sensor of an IR-guided missile before it's blind; stare a little longer and there's a hole through its computer. With other forms of missile guidance you have to stare a bit longer but, done miles out from impact, the chance of the missile scoring a hit, or even staying airborne, is pretty small.

In those days, these lasers were too big to put in aircraft, but a multi-thousand ton warship would make a good platform.

My point is that, unless you have the proper security clearances, you have no idea about what may be coming in the way of defending land and sea based assets. The Phalanx...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx_CIWS

works for close-in missile defense [even the Iowa museum ship has a couple], but laser weapons can engage at greater ranges.

All warfare is a tit-for-tat contest between offensive and defensive weapon designers and the dynamics of that are unknown to us.

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stillldoinit (May 19, 2020)

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## Toolmaker51

ALL the preceding strategic opinions, and realities of engagement are true. One thing has been over-looked, though Frank S alluded to it. The most powerful instrument the US Navy has, isn't so much of a weapon; deterrence. Deterrence, also known as projection of power, has a most certain effect. Whether the Battleships are preserved for use is subject to conjecture; re-commissioning would be a serious undertaking. Yet even at rest, they prove that effect remains. When shelling of known ammo dump inside a mountain proved successful targeting by endless secondary explosions, those who discredit naval gunfire were taken aback. Sometime later, there were interrogations of captives that also reinforced a theory from long before. 'Technology' such as cruise missiles have their measure of psychological and tactical impact, but are seen as something that can be countered. When a BB slid into station, far over the horizon, you knew something would happen.
That 16" round, 1900lbs or more, traveling at 2500 fps (820m/s) or more, is coming. Fired 20+ miles away, virtually no heat signature, comparatively small profile (and smaller yet in section), substantially faster than most jet fighters, few if any stationary or mobile platform has much chance of 'shooting it down'.

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HobieDave (Mar 21, 2020)

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## Frank S

Someone asked me several years ago why there are so many storage facilities for mothballed Military hardware such as the Navy's hypothetical ghost fleet. or why ships such as the USS Texas and the USS Alabama 2 museum pieces were still listed at the time as merely inactive status, the then 430,000+ tactical & combat vehicles or equipment and the infamous Bone yard. 
He asked why not simply cut everything up and recycle them.
To this I responded with a few questions and statements. First off I asked him if he had read anything about the shortages of materials, the sacrifices even the hardships every US citizen encountered and willingly endured during not only WWI but WWII as well.
He said that he remembered some of it from history classes in school but those things could never happen now.
OH and what makes you feel that the US of A and her citizens are now immune to such shortages as Iron copper bauxite titanium lead magnesium rubber and a host of other materials.
Because he said we can recycle nearly everything to make new products with the billions of tons of junk already laying around.
True to an extent not everything is 100% recyclable plus the energy to recycle certain things can approach 50% of the cost to mine from raw materials now lets just suppose for a minute that a conflict on a global scale were to spring up out of nowhere lets further suppose that for reasons unknown the other 2 near supper powers decided that they were going to absolutely sit this one out with the exception of possible black marketing to a few select Waring factions. Could we of the United States at our current level of production or could our production of weapons platforms be ramped up to the levels they were back in the days to the previous 2 world wars given that today's technology is far more complex, to enable us to protect ourselves and help friendly allies in a timely enough manner? Given that it takes as much as 15 years to construct a large naval vessel and as few as 50 new high tech war planes can be made in a year running full staff at 24/7 Remember that a Military fighter jet might have cost only a few million dollars to produce in the 60s now can cost hundreds of millions to produce and take many months longer and Just how long would it take to build a battery of tanks to replace an entire brigade's compliment?
Lets take another look at things there are several Navel vessels mothballed or used as museum pieces which although a complete upgrade to the latest modern weaponry might take a few years for any one item they already have at least 1 thing going for them THEY float now or could in a short time modifying them to launch short range missals being able to get them to maneuver under their own power even if antiquated may not be much of a difficult task re arming them with their original weapons where possible would be no great task in most cases.
Of the 4000 + existing aircraft located at the bone yard many might only need a really good servicing and re armed to be put in the air the added plus to that although they are not considered by today's standards to be able to go head to head against modern forces. the shear numbers of them could be the tipping point to shortening a conflict. all this would be without the need for 5 year old children to squish the last remaining amount of tooth paste out of a tin tube or to donate their tricycles and wagons to the war effort.

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Toolmaker51 (Oct 3, 2017)

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## Toolmaker51

Any conventional scrapyard doesn't vinyl wrap, carefully stage like models, have partially cannibalized items on blocks, or maintain general good order. Little thought falls on dry atmospheric conditions that aid preservation, or locations almost devoid of serious weather.
Can't think of any instance where they regarded a trove of apparent discards 'assets'.

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## Dr Stan

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.

Dwight Eisenhower

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## mdhatter3

Dr Stan, please accept my apologies for being wrong. If you served in the navy, then you would be correct.

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## Frank S

> Any conventional scrapyard doesn't vinyl wrap, carefully stage like models, have partially cannibalized items on blocks, or maintain general good order. Little thought falls on dry atmospheric conditions that aid preservation, or locations almost devoid of serious weather.
> Can't think of any instance where they regarded a trove of apparent discards 'assets'.



One of the primary reasons for the near perfectly cataloged order to the planes stored in the Bone yard is all around the world many countries still have the same models of some of these planes in their standing military even in our own armed forces some of these planes are still being used plus the bone yard is a depository for civilian aircraft to a lessor extent. spare parts for aircraft are expensive and there is nothing wrong with placing used but fully inspected and certified parts on another flying aircraft. A friend of mine regularly receives load contracts to haul both to and from there He describes the place as phenomenal the way it is laid out there are areas where fully functional flight worthy aircraft are stored not only stored but maintained although at a minimal level other areas where the aircraft are in various stages of cannibalization up to a point as each assembly is removed the adjacent surfaces are wrapped and protected the daily mission status is hugely expensive but at the same time profitable

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## Dr Stan

> Dr Stan, please accept my apologies for being wrong. If you served in the navy, then you would be correct.



I'm a disabled Vietnam Vet who has seen first hand the folly of war. The only thing it does is create destruction. There are no winners as everyone is a looser.

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## 12bolts

No disrespect to you Dr Stan, (and thank you for your service), but the nazis were clear losers in WW2.
BTW, I agree that it does create destruction, but from the ashes of "that phoenix" arose the NATO Alliance

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## Dr Stan

> No disrespect to you Dr Stan, (and thank you for your service), but the nazis were clear losers in WW2.
> BTW, I agree that it does create destruction, but from the ashes of "that phoenix" arose the NATO Alliance



Your reply is nothing but a disrespectful political statement. As such it has no business being part of this forum.

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## Jon

> Your reply is nothing but a disrespectful political statement. As such it has no business being part of this forum.



I disagree. 12bolts's response included multiple attempts to convey respect ("no disrespect", "thank you", "I agree"). We have a broad Overton window on this forum in regard to views of technology and war. This includes acceptance of a wide range of beliefs about war, including both the position that war is needlessly destructive, the position that the benefits of armed conflict outweigh its destruction, and many other perspectives on war and technology, some of which we will only encounter if we continue to be open to hearing different viewpoints.

Your personal involvement and sacrifice in war merits the respect and appreciation of your peers and your countrymen, but does not entitle you to different treatment than anyone else in this community. If you'd like to discuss your political position on military conflict beyond an occasional comment in a discussion, you are welcome to do so in our Off-Topic subforum.

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