# Off-Topic >  Shop Truths, Phrases, Tales; and Outright Lies

## Toolmaker51

THE DESIGNER

The designer bent across his board,
Such wonderful things in his head were stored.
And he said as he rubbed his throbbing bean,
"How can I make this thing hard to machine?
If this part here were only straight,
I'm sure the thing would work first rate.
But would be so easy to turn and bore,
It never would make the machinist sore.
Ill put a right angle way down there,
Watch those babies tear their hair.
And I'll put the holes that hold the cap,
Under the ledge where they cant tap.
Now this piece won't work, I'll bet a buck,
For it can't be held in vise or chuck.
It can't be drilled; it can't be ground,
In fact, the design is exceedingly sound! 
He looks again and cried, "At last!
Success is mine, it can't even be cast."

Unknown Author or time period.
But we can imagine his line of work.

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C-Bag (Apr 24, 2016),

hemmjo (Dec 30, 2021),

jjr2001 (Jun 7, 2020),

MeJasonT (Sep 29, 2016),

Nelson58 (Jan 4, 2018),

Paul Jones (Aug 26, 2016),

Philip Davies (Jun 14, 2021),

Scotsman Hosie (Apr 11, 2019),

Strostkovy (Jul 4, 2016),

thehomeengineer (Jan 30, 2018),

tsbrownie (Jun 12, 2019),

will52100 (May 8, 2020)

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## C-Bag

LOL!!! 

Last wage slave tour they decided because THE most produced "machine" in a packing house install is a belt conveyor they would "simplify" the prints. And the the main difference was the drive and tail configurations. So a print would be of all the configirations possible and it was up to the "applications" engineer to cross out what didn't apply. And as you've probably guessed I got a print with ALL configurations crossed out. 

I rolled this thing that was longer than I am tall and trudged up to engineering and unfurled it on the bosses desk and asked him what I should make. He looked both sides carefully several times and then just turned and stared at me. After a long a silent gaze I got the hint. I went down and assembled what was on the pallet. The "fix" was no more prints, at all. Ever. So if it was wrong there was never any doubt it was always our fault.

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Paul Jones (Aug 26, 2016),

PJs (May 19, 2016)

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## Frank S

Once there were 2 guys competing for the world's smallest high precision part award First a Japanese man made a roller that was 5 mm long 2 mm in diameter. This is what my state of the art Sumotomo CNC machining center is capable of making by the millions,
MY ,my MR Sumotomo that is impressive indeed said the judge.
The German man took it to his company chucked it up in his Boehringer VDF CNC then cut it in 2 pieces drilled and threaded 1 piece then turned down and threaded the second part and screwed them back together now the part was 4 mm long and 2 mm in diameter. 
The judges said now that has to be the highest precision in the world 
A 3rd guy said if you don't mind I'd like a shot at this. So he took it to his home garage machine shop where he took the 2 pieces apart chucked the first piece up in his WWII salvaged SB lathe with a 4 jaw chuck then proceeded to drill a hole right down the length of the threads then calculated on a piece of paper where the mating hole needed to be in the 2nd part afterwards he machined a tiny little pin to insert in the hole of the first part then re assembled the roller and took it back to the competition counter the next day.
Well I see you failed to do anything to this part said the judge except that now it won't come apart. So I must award the prize to MR Boehringer 
Just a minute Sir, If I may, the 3rd man took the part then stood it vertical and tapped it on its end then carefully unscrewed the 2 parts . Afterwards he tipped one part over and a small highly polished lock pin fell out. My old vintage lathe may not be the fastest and it may not have all that fancy programming available but with a little ingenuity and a machinist who knows his business I'll put my old lathe up against anybody's in the world.
WHO are you SIR?
My name is O'Brien, John J.

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MakeFix (Feb 7, 2022),

PJs (May 19, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (May 19, 2016),

will52100 (May 8, 2020)

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## C-Bag

I saw this somewhere years ago and all I remember was it was one of the engineers that was working with Jim Hall on his Chaparral race car. 

It takes an engineer to make it complicated, and genius to make it simple. 

I've tried ever since to KISS, keep it simple stupid, the other great axiom.

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Paul Jones (May 17, 2016),

PJs (May 19, 2016),

Scotsman Hosie (Apr 11, 2019)

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## PJs

Nice thread guys! A little true story, close to home. Dad was a POL officer back in the late 50's early 60's and there was a huge problem with water in jet fuel, causing catastrophic failures particularly in cold weather climates and altitude. The engineers had built elaborate multi-screen filters down to 100 mesh but water was still a problem with moisture in solution. Dad did some research and we played with a few things in the shop, finally settling on the use of felt. Bottom line was Dads simple but elegant solution worked and it became the standard for the Air Force jet fuel systems and may still be today(?). My favorite saying he used to tell us was "a mouse built to government specs is an elephant".

I came into engineering backwards and probably for the best IMHO. Growing up in a home shop, making things we needed, fixing and making things better, competition U-Control model airplanes and hand launch gliders, experimented with chemistry, electronics, physics, and any other candle I could light. Then college (EE), then to retail for a few years then to turning a wrench professionally for 7 years (because they were laying off PhD EE's). Then back to school for mechanical, and CAD. Then turned a pencil until a few years ago. When I was a wrench I always said those Detroit engineers should never pick up a pencil till they worked on vehicles for at least 3 years. A 69' Cougar 390 with progressive tail lights is a perfect example. Second on my list is the Mopar "Lean Burn" system of the 70's.

As an engineering manager in my later years I coined the phrase "Simple Elegance" for our group and tried to instill it by example and praise with our designs for manufacturing. Unfortunately most company's want it yesterday and settle for quite a bit less, dumping it in the market before it reaches some semblance of that...and generally more costly than getting it right and clean first, IMHO. 

As a minor hilarity I remember recommending a small ($300) but important software package back in the mid 80's and sitting in a staff meeting for over an hour giving all the details and listening to 7 other staff members hunt and peck around the idea for over an hour...then I said; How much has this meeting with staff members cost the company for the last hour and change? The boss looked at me kind of shocked and frowned then said buy it. Near as I remember there was probably $6-800/hour sitting there. Doh!

Thanks, ~PJ

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C-Bag (May 19, 2016),

Paul Jones (Sep 1, 2016),

Scotsman Hosie (Apr 11, 2019),

Toolmaker51 (May 19, 2016)

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## Toolmaker51

I post occasionally on mechanical topics, maybe a little on music, or some humor, using telepathic means.
So, when a great idea pops into your head,you break out whistling, or laugh out loud;

It was probably me.

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Paul Jones (Sep 1, 2016),

PJs (May 22, 2016)

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## PJs

:Clapping:  I had a feeling that was you...now get out of my head.  :Lol: 

“Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up 
and hurry off as if nothing had happened.”
Winston Churchill

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MakeFix (Feb 7, 2022),

Paul Jones (Sep 1, 2016),

Scotsman Hosie (Apr 11, 2019),

tmoore4748 (Oct 22, 2018),

Toolmaker51 (May 22, 2016)

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## Toolmaker51

A HMT member uses this quote in his signature line, and I appreciate it's viewpoint. However, it seems a bit contrary to perception related by fellow HMT'ers.
We, the unwilling, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have done so much, for so long, with so little, we are now qualified to do anything with nothing.
― Konstantin Jireček

I'm tempted to offer small alterations to quote of Mr. K. Jireček. 

We, the *willing*, led by the unknowing, do the impossible for the ungrateful. 
*Having* done so much, for so long, with so little, we are not *only* qualified, *we now create anything for them from virtually* nothing.

In my estimation, existence of sites like HMT.net (& those co-linked to it), Practical Machinist.com, and other examples serve to reinforce it. 

I'm soliciting for edits; tune it into something like a mission statement, not a lament. Also, please make suggestions what we'd like to post as the author.

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MakeFix (Feb 7, 2022),

PJs (Jul 2, 2016)

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## ToolMakerRob

I agree completely, However I felt this time to keep the quote a quote, so I kept it original.

"We, the willing, led by the unknowing, have been doing the impossible, for the ungrateful for so long, with so little, we are now capable of creating anything with nothing."

-ToolMaker Rob 

That is the modified version I made and used to use all the time. As a Toolmaker / Engineer it is definitely my favourite quote.

Brilliant Idea 51, I have since updated my sig to reflect it

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MakeFix (Feb 7, 2022),

PJs (Jul 2, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Jun 30, 2016)

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## C-Bag

While I was a wage slave I subscribed to all the above. But seeing as this is HomeMadeTools and I'm making stuff at home for me not "big boss man" my tune has changed. It now goes something like......

I, unwilling and unable to buy the too expensive, made by the unknowing Elsewhere, for the ungrateful who used to make it here, now make it out of cast offs that were too good to go in the landfill or shipped off to be recycled Elsewhere.

I am now able to make anything out of something because the creativity and ingenuity given to me by my elders and my fellow HMTers that can't be outsourced, only ignored or forgotten.

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MeJasonT (Sep 29, 2016),

Paul Jones (Sep 1, 2016),

PJs (Jul 2, 2016),

Scotsman Hosie (Apr 11, 2019),

Taijen7018 (Mar 28, 2018),

Toolmaker51 (Jun 30, 2016),

ToolMakerRob (Jun 30, 2016)

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## Toolmaker51

Ok, a bit too intricate to be descriptive, brief and accurate. Fun part's easy. 3 characters "Who" and names changed to protect a brace of morons. 'Moron', charitable phrase that. Henceforth, ID'ed as (dufus) d1 and d2. Forget the brief part, efficiency kills fun. Short story anyway, compared to War and Peace.

*Set Up*
Day 1 last Wed. Over time, d2 frequently mentions "25 years in production". Checking LinkedIn, there is a short USMC commission and production turns out to be printing industry. Not offset like circulars, cartography or even texts. Checkbooks. Oh yeah that relates, dovetails right into metal fab. Most initiatives turn out to be theorizing, weak attempts to apply single station and closed cell work to multi-process manufacturing.
Now it's 2:30 and clocked out. d2 is assisting press brake operator. His sale of fairing sheets is late. They are 16ga galvanized, 109" wide 70" something deep, no way 1 man job. Interesting part, one end angles 30 degrees from other, but not a simple crease. A 12" radius, needs like 50 fractional step bends. The inspector, Mr. Who stops by off the clock, but to support the brake operator, a good kid. They are having trouble, middle is buckled; bet extreme ends of ram are hitting before the middle. After signal to brake-op "I won't buy (sign off) these." d2 says "...we're having trouble." Magic 9 items need to ship, swear that .75 hour is quote for ALL 9, after 1/2 hour setup. Started in the morning and now 8 hours in. They frequently video the brake-op, surprisingly no camera and tripod in sight for this. Who fires 16" Naval battery. "Told ya, this looks easy from a swivel chair, watching youtube." Direct hit, d2 is shocked, can't respond with anything but 'you knucklehead 25 years yaddy yaddy ya.' Who chuckles and returns "25? what percentage is that compared to the total out here?...got 26 driving you jarheads around AND 40 years producing, not watching." Who departs without any evasive maneuver.

*Heat's ON*
Day 2, Thursday. HOT job. Co. sells bundle of weldments, 1.75 od cold rolled 37" long w/ a forged double pin clevis each end. Rods weren't chamfered night before, to run next morn. Guess Who got that deal. Rumor has it he's Inspector and mystery machinist. Nuthin beats switching 12'' chuck to 3 jaw by hand, mount steady rest cuz bar's bigger than spindle bore. No clue, fairly kickazz 60's era Okuma D1-6 spindle isn't 2 1/16 id. Anyhoo#1, Guess Who guy loads 58 bars, cranking the compound, flipping to other end and filling a pallet. Robot operator grabs a couple, fires up and he's off to the races. They're 25#, handled 3x is 4350. Runs bulk of order, we clock out, 2nd comes in.

*Enfilade & Defilade*
Day 3, Friday. 1st comes in 0600, job's incomplete. Shut down for porosity on 2nd's start up (oh sure - ran fine all day). 9 bad parts. We never run out of gas, silo sized vessel outside. Cracked nozzle supposedly (likely the prevalent & cracked supv.) So, intrepid G. Who gets his fav'rit flash ''...*you need* to cut off welds re-chamfer bars AND reshape spud of said clevises, all 18 of course. "How long's it gonna take". "Dunno, only heard of it 35 seconds ago" "Well get them done fast as possible" "No" "This isn't a race, it's to save a salesman (dufus2) and he isn't going to make a hospital visit, this ain't kid stuff". Way unappreciative glare from dufus1. 

* D-Day*
Of course G. Who knew. They (Co.) shy away from setup parts, 'specially when customer supplied materials are used. He split a few last run awhile back, recovering all destined to be scrapped out. Drawer of tool box has many accommodations, no one else can tell what they are. Snarling glance dufus1 grabs one clevis to give it a try. Oh, he'll show me, er G. Who. Despite all the 5s initiatives, 80 grit belts for the big sanders aren't replaced until last one burns up. 5s apparently means swearing, usually the colloquial term for feces, that many times. d1 goes at it, dinky right angle pneumatic in one hand, clevis in da utter. Like a weak 4th of July, way less spectators. d1 stops, clamps forging in his metal forming brake. His go-to repair site, that and fat deadblow hammer; zero talent past that. Knowledgeable set knows it as a Wilton Bullet vise. A veritable sculptor, he carves toward the spud with all the might 1/4" HF pneumatic RA can muster. The spud tapers from maybe an inch to 5/8'' or so and quite short, a well hidden nipple under mile of MIG wire. The bar, weld and cover passes near 2'' od. Audience is dufus2; hands in pockets, leaning forward oddly, intent behind 'cool' safety glasses, jeans, red poly-knit shirt, diagonal stripe on left sleeve. Grinding feverishly and trading off, they'll be awhile. Too dirty for ROFLOL, Who-man makes intermittent observations, appraising the competition, for plenty oneupmanship ammo.

*Operation Flank and T-Bone*
Meanwhile, Mr. Who spins last 2 bars. Swaps out 3 to 4 jaw, pulls steady rest, backs tailstock far as it goes and rolls up sleeves. Cue up something like a loping radial aircraft engine. Or 4, 113 inch HD's and a BSA 441. Anyhoo #2. He's got 2 pads that bridge gap of clevis arms and a little jackscrew inside. No indicator, just circular scored lines on chuck face; he's got the nerve and he's got the touch. Love that line, no clue on origin. Open those imaginary throttles. The setup is RIGID, goes 735 rpm, next step is 1200 something, inappropriate for this can't handfeed quick or deep enough to pass workhardening. Big negative triangular insert eats up crap weld fine, right near original form. He pulls the part and strolls toward robot station to verify Ok or better. Ahead of d1 by 5 feet, holding his out like a champagne toast - hot champagne at that. G. Who, eveready to convert defense to offense asks polite-like and impossibly straightfaced "First one?". 
 Evidently practice pays, now the glare is b-grade horror movie quality.
Most abruptly, sanding comes to a grinding halt. "Just get em done". d1 and d2 stomp off, with pinhole burns in shirts. 
Returning to lathe Who starts in on remaining 16. Part way through, d2 hies in for another " how soon?". wtf its barely 10am. Who gets off more 2 rounds. "...faster than you'll figure out how to do this" and "too bad about the shirt dude, whats the racing stripe for?" a curt "...only decoration." Instantaneously and between the eyes "Good, lets time how fast you go away." Who is energized to say the least, heat of competition as it were. 


* Deguello*
Now it's 11; still doing in-process inspections as they come along, back & forth from lathe to surface plate. Who finishes during lunch, plotting next sortie all along. But now, Who knows the cell numbers to d1 and d2. Texts out "Done. Avg less than 5 minutes part to part. Pay attention to your elders. You owe me lunch and and apology."
Who learns later d2 goes to welder asking "what's this is all about?" Welder really has NO interest in d2's number, and so states. They don't get along either. That is related to Who, and he texts out "Only one here with a Los Angeles area code, your fav'rit knucklehead, why blame [welder]".
Finally, Who logs in to job tracking, claims 9 bars, and 17 clevi. Comments section records permanently. "Saw cut weldments, 18 ends. Chamfer bars, both ends. Recut 17 clevis forgings. Someone thought hand grinding would beat 10 HP lathe and me."

*Debrief*
_Believe it, me doing the Alpha-Hotel bit is not normal. AH's are amateurish, baseless, and without sufficient where-with-all to convince experienced persons of their false sincerity. After years seeing work dissolve into near servitude, where administrators think term papers equate work experience, and offsite corporate decisions solve everything, I bucked. Somehow, sometime, and thankfully individuality fell on me and it has a degree of self-preservation. They have little self-assurance, outside a canned title.
Be Right. Stay out of the corner, raise voice but don't yell, mild indirect swearing and use their ineptness to advantage. Never been terminated in any manner, genuine or created, or even on the carpet. It would be interesting to present facts against those abrasive and inflated egos to a third party. Somehow it never comes to that, despite veiled threats. The loudest and loutish are the trolls, without tangible means to establish themselves._

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C-Bag (Aug 5, 2016),

Paul Jones (Sep 1, 2016),

Philip Davies (Jun 13, 2021),

PJs (Aug 3, 2016)

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## PJs

As an amateur philologist TM51, I find this reminding me of the "Allegory of Piers Plowman" which I read again recently. So many similes in the function of the allegory, I had to giggle out loud in filial philology to your fine naming conventions and style. I am however a bit confused as to whether you mean Bugle Call or throat slitting with the term "Deguello"...or both?  :Confused: 

I also enjoy learning hysteria (History) and IIRC the "Peasant Wars" started just after Langland's publishing of his landmark works. Did D1, D2 and Guess Who, just pick themselves up and continue to muddle on or did a war break out?  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Funny how tragedy is usually comical! ~PJ

FYI
*Passus 4*

"Whoso wilneth hire to wyve, For welthe of hire goodes--
But he be knowe for a cokewold, kut of my nose!'
Mede mornede tho, and made hevy chere,
For the mooste commune of that court called hire an hore.
Ac a sisour and a somonour sued hire faste,
And a sherreves clerk bisherewed al the route:
" For ofte have I,' quod he, 'holpen yow at the barre,
And yet yeve ye me nevere the worth of a risshe!'
The Kyng callede Conseience and afterward Reson,
And recordede that Reson hadde rightfully shewed ;
And modiliche upon Mede with myght the Kyng loked,
And gan wexe wroth with Lawe, for Mede almoost hadde shent it,
And seide, -Thorugh youre lawe, as I leve, I lese manye chetes;
Mede overmaistreth Lawe and muche truthe letteth.
Ac Reson shal rekene with yow, if I regne any while, -
And deme yow, bi this day, as ye han deserved.
Mede shal noght maynprise yow, by the Marie of hevene!
I wole have leaute in lawe, and lete be al youre jangling,
And as moost folk witnesseth wel, Wrong shal be demed.'
Quod Conscience to the Kyng, 'But the commune wole assente,-
It is ful hard, by myn heed, herto to brynge it,
[And] alle youre lige leodes to lede thus evene.'
"By Hym that raughte on the Rood!' quod Reson to the Kynge,
But if I rule thus youre reaume, rende out my guttes--
If ye bidden buxomnesse be of myn assent.'
"And I assente,' seith the Kyng, " by Seinte Marie my lady,
Be my Counseil comen of clerkes and of erles.
Ac redily, Reson, thow shalt noght ride hennes;
For as longe as I lyve, lete thee I nelle.'
'I am al redy.' quod Reson, "to reste with yow evere;
So Conscience be of oure counceil, I kepe no bettre.'
"And I graunte,' quod the Kyng, "Goddes forbode he faile!
Als longe as oure lyf lasteth, lyve we togideres!'

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C-Bag (Aug 5, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Aug 5, 2016)

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## Toolmaker51

Well Deguello connotes a serious outcome. "No quarter" is sufficiently graphic. Santa Ana marched on The Alamo to it.
But on the other hand, it's the name to a ZZ Top album too...

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PJs (Aug 4, 2016)

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## PJs

Ah the picture is coming to mind...But of Course! I forgot ZZ the Carnegie wizards of Rock and Roll...a whole 'nother cogitation of Deguello!  :Wink:

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Toolmaker51 (Aug 5, 2016)

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## Toolmaker51

Did D1, D2 and Guess Who, just pick themselves up and continue to muddle on or did a war break out? 
Funny how tragedy is usually comical! 
In this case, tragedy is how certain ridiculous persons keep themselves employed. d2, Mr. 25 years has not uttered word, nor cast sidewards glance since. Kind of "I tried to catch my eye, but looked the other way."
How 25 yrs qualifies as an argument escapes me; not seeking expertise of others part of that, continually; we'd be but a self proclaimed expert. Invalid, self absorbed, and not even well-rounded.
d1, my 'manager' who has but a single person who reports to him, also is stand-off-ish, thankfully. He smokes outside but wants to hover, looking over my shoulder offering 'tips' & 101 level recommendations. A Quality manager does not know sine bars? Worst sort of desk jockey; he tours vendors and suppliers occasionally and keeps a trip record, logically kept in vehicle and covered clipboard. Then, instead of scanning that, he retypes (barely past hunt-peck rate) digital version, saves and pastes into email for reimbursement. But can't envision providing a laptop - I use my own - to record inspection measurements. I write excel's with speech to text, quite nifty. 1.001 diameter enter- length 2.531 enter - thread pitch 16 enter then id the features on a drawing numerically. Very best when head is inside comparator curtain operating axis controls, avoids readjusting eyes light to dark. Just cuz I'm old doesn't mean stuck in 'my' ways. 63 and look younger than most there.

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C-Bag (Aug 5, 2016),

MeJasonT (Sep 29, 2016),

Paul Jones (Sep 1, 2016),

PJs (Aug 5, 2016)

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## Frank S

Many years ago I was accosted by one of those MR 25's only he was a MR 39 having performed the same task in a production atmosphere since his hiring at the company. I was fresh out of a short 6 year stint in the Military where there was very little call for my very specialized primary function hence I carried and worked in multiple MOS' ( Military occupational specialties) including mechanic/ combat engineer/ machinist/ welder/ truck driver/ weapons specialist, to name a few.
Any way MR 39 would constantly hover near my work station where I was fitting up prototype machine platforms for deep foundation and bridge piling drill rigs, requiring that I often times ignore the draftsmen's drawings and ad-lib my own designs to make things fit or function. MR 39 who had only done 1 single task in the company for 39 years just could not accept this young 25 something year old kid having the knowledge to do intricate work arounds. So one day I was having a particularly in challenging fit up work around. Here comes MR 39 with his less than needed advice, I decided that this would be the day that I either would be made foreman over the entire department or collect any due severance pay.
Right in front of the owner of the company I bulled to the max. 
Look I said you say you have 39 years experience when in reality you have only at most 90 days experience and have spent the past 39 years trying to make sure you still know how to preform that same task. 
I on the other hand apprenticed for 5 years doing 100s of far more demanding jobs tahn yours prior to joining the military to further my d hone my education an hone my skill set I may have only been with this company a short time but guees who has had not less than 5 significant pay hikes in my short 1 year with the company? My 6 year old daughter could do what you do here if she were only about a foot taller and probably my 2 year old could providing someone would place it on her high chair, either go away and let me do my work or grab that stinger and tack these parts where they need to be.
The next day he was retired from the company. And NO I did not accept the foreman's job a month later I moved on to start my own welding and fabrication business. I have only had 1 possibly 2 short lived jobs since where I actually had to punch a time clock so to speak.
Your Mr 25 sounds like my MR 39

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C-Bag (Aug 5, 2016),

HobieDave (Mar 4, 2020),

PJs (Aug 5, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Aug 5, 2016)

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## C-Bag

I circle this thread like a cat on a hot tin roof. These stories are reflections of my PTSD ( being exposed to bad management, horrible unsafe and dangerous conditions ) of my history of working. It points directly why I tended towards one man shops(just me and the boss) and was never happy or able to hang with family businesses, dealerships and working for large corporations. The more people involved (especially middle management/lead men/family members ) the more the setup to not really do the job at hand and be thwarted at every turn. 

These seem to be universal experiences but why oh why does it seem to also be the universal notion that we need more businessmen in leadership positions throughout every level of our lives? 

I go through periods where I pay attention and feel like the guy strapped to the couch with his eyes clamped open with the chaos and sheer stupidity of the human condition pouring in, unable to fix or do anything about it. I have to kick the portal closed ,pick myself up off the floor and retreat into doing and making where I can bring creativity to bear and actually solve a problem. The news diet and accomplishing creatively is the only thing that gets my feet on the ground again and focused on the present. And the realization the most soul sucking part for me of my time in the wage slave trenches was being forced to do substandard work because of time limits and or cost. 

Everybody knows the "why is there always time to do it over, but never to do it right the first time?" We tried to put that up on the walls with other stupid stuff management put up but it somehow always disappeared. 

The truth is when I look back very few of my bosses were creative, that's what I was there for. But having not that great of self esteem I let them nit pick me and actually feel bad about it. Even though when they wanted something done perfect, I was the guy they went to. But I wasn't able to see that at the time, only the little niggling doubts they planted with criticism.

One of the many benefits of working at home is I listen to audio books as I go about more menial tasks. Everything from sci-fi to self help, history, biographies and everything in between. Keeps the old noggin' engaged while my hands are on auto pilot. One of my more interesting one recently was A First Rate Madness: Uncovering The Link Between Leadership and Mental Illness". 

Contrary to what you might think, this is about great generals and presidents, NOT guys like Who, d1,d2 and my old nemeses. It shows how there are all shades of supposed mental illness and how the creative mind is more prone to varying kinds and levels of what if taken to extreme seen as mental illness. But in mild forms of like OCD, etc can make somebody compulsively meticulous or be able to come up with solutions a "normal" person could never even comprehend. Because their minds are more agile, less one track, where a normal person( a term called a homoclite) does not have the capacity for. While the book is fascinating to me showing some of the underlying problems the great figures like Sherman, Grant, Ghandi, FDR, JFK etc, went through with their physical and mental illnesses, the equally enlightening is the dissection of the homoclite mind. I'll be honest it reveals more about my old bosses as they were mostly homoclite. 

In a nutshell, the homoclite is THE best when in normal stable times where his opposite is not. But under crisis the opposite is true. The homoclite in a crisis situation tends to be the proverbial deer in the headlights, more likely to double down than to find a creative solution. Sound familiar? jes sayin'

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Philip Davies (Jun 14, 2021),

PJs (Aug 5, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Aug 5, 2016)

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## PJs

Well Said, C-Bag! I re-read this entire thread again this morning and thought of a couple of things. 

First is; I wonder if I resemble MR25...that little niggler tells me I probably did once or twice along the many miles. 

Second is; there are a lot of people out there and every one has their own "Way of Becoming". I generally don't like the idea of Archetypes but age has shown me there is some truth to it, even though I Know each of us has our own unique character based on many factors. The key is how does one make do in the sea of them...and why? Here is my attempt at breaking the workaday world into groups. Some are promoted by Peter Principle and will generally fail -some not. Some just do the same thing for 30yrs for the paycheck and blindly and obediently do only what is ask of them with mediocrity. Some are Alpha Dogs (2 types)...those that do anything to succeed (competitive by hook or crook) and those that are wily with discernment, street smarts and some brains to succeed. Then there are those that are creative, learners, doers that work hard at their own improvement and knowledge base throughout their lives and try to help others along the way. There are probably other groups but those are the primary, IMHO.

The last group is probably why I joined this great forum. The people here come from all walks, disciplines, and skills, but share freely their ideas, builds and have that creativity and fortitude to get things done with the things at hand and with or with out plans. I would like to consider myself one of that last group but know I've fallen from the tree a few times until I either realized it myself or it was pointed out to me by someone that got the point across, nicely or not. 




> How 25 yrs qualifies as an argument escapes me; not seeking expertise of others part of that, continually; we'd be but a self proclaimed expert. Invalid, self absorbed, and not even well-rounded.



TM51 aptly noted that d2 doesn't seek expertise of others and would probably fall into the Alpha Dog 1 category in my book based on the story. Years ago an old guy I looked up to and thought was an expert once told me not to call him that. He told me to break down the word...Ex (has been) Spurt (a drip that's about to)...I got it and never forgot it. I had the privilege over the years to work with and learn from some fine people with what I would call wisdom. Not all of them were old, some set in their ways a bit (focused) but the ones I am grateful to have known are those that had vision, learners and the wherewithal to get it done, the best they could, share it...and most of them had broad backgrounds, young or old. Honestly to me its the miles not the years that really mean anything, but only if we learn from them, share them, and take them to the next level. Otherwise it's just road weary miles no matter what archetype we fall into.

Lord knows I have run into my share of "Them" that irritate, cheat, lie, steal and tell me "What to do or How to Behave". I'm a big fan of bumper stickers over the years and billboards too. What I've noticed over the last 20 or so is that more and more are telling people how to behave. Like the "CoEXist" stickers out here that you see on the back of the ID10T's that just cut you off in traffic or races you off the line to get in front of you and be a digital driver (on/off the gas and brakes) in front of you...Control freaks or maybe just ID10T's, IMHO. Who knows but they are here. What ever happened to the wholesome fun of the Burma Shave signs? Personally it's feeling more like a Systemic Pathology that is growing in the work world as well as the rest of it. 

So how does one make do in a sea of "them" and "Why we do what we do"? Franks story of his encounter with MR39 and TM51's with D1 & D2 illustrate how it can be done and I've used both methods over the years. I think what I've learned from all those incidents is that I learn also from them, and sometimes figure out how to approach it better next time. However there are those times that nothing seems to work better than a good Gibb's, Head Slap. I got a few knots on my head a time or two from my Dad OCS ring...and it usually worked although I didn't like the method much and told him so a few times as I got older. It's funny we talked about it a year or two before his passing and I was able to laugh and tell him I actually appreciated some of them...and he said to me that he had learned a lot too by me telling him it was too harsh sometimes.

As for "Why we do what we do", I think it has to do with loving what we do or did, with pure intentions to do it right and the best of our ability, learning along the way...sometimes making something from nothing, recycling old stuff, making something better because we can and because deep down we like doing the impossible and doing the Right Thing. Not something I want to wear as a badge but as a _way of becoming_ for myself.

Probably reaching the 5K point here and wondering if I'm in up to my ears... :Wink:  ~PJ

----------

C-Bag (Aug 5, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Aug 5, 2016)

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## Toolmaker51

PJs concern with a MR25 or d3 label is...groundless. 
d1, d2 and likely MR39 are NOT here or even lurk reading posts. They certainly aren't posting. And no recall of an ''outside the box'' moment. 
Jon may have a magic screening process. Or 'they' collectively may have nothing to relate. I hope for both.

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## Frank S

Speaking for my encounter for several years after my little tiff that day after I had moved on and started out on my own MR 39 who had been in his mid 60's at the time often came over to my house to hire me to make something for him. We were at the time of the tiff and until his passing about 20 years later quite good friends. He was just one of those guys who had started with a company at it's beginning and found that he had no skill set or desire to venture into other departments. It wasn't until I had hired in there that he started thinking he would become an Alpha dog type 1. he could not accept that some young guy who by his thinking couldn't have more than a year or 2 experience in any single field. It was a near impossibility in his mind that including my 6 years in the military I could have 14 years under my belt, while if truth be told those 14 years would translate to more like 30 or 35 years (wage slave years that is) . Heck I held a 6 g confined space certification and could make hot ties on live Nat gas pipelines when I was 16 yet here he was nearly 65 having worked in the same department his whole career doing the same thing over and over 
I would have went off the deep end after a week of what he did his whole life 
During the times he would come over for a visit , sometimes a few adult beverages might be consumed if we were just socializing and not actually constructing something for him, he once said that he thought that I might be savant at many things.
Who knows maybe I was at one time now in my later years I find that things which at one tie ware second nature to me require much more due diligence and thought before I attempt to design or make them.

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PJs (Aug 6, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Aug 5, 2016)

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## Toolmaker51

My hats off to Frank S. I've only known one hot tap line welder, and he was 88, 30 years ago.
I notice a common facet in our off-topic thread.
Those with little experience are secure in an offhanded way. No challenge, no mistakes, minimal effort; even in the presence of knowledge they can't recognize opportunity.

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## PJs

> PJs concern with a MR25 or d3 label is...groundless. 
> d1, d2 and likely MR39 are NOT here or even lurk reading posts. They certainly aren't posting. And no recall of an ''outside the box'' moment. 
> Jon may have a magic screening process. Or 'they' collectively may have nothing to relate. I hope for both.



TM51, 

I am a bit _concerned_ why you would think I have "Concern" about a "Label" for these people or some fear that they may be lurking on the forum here. I'm not even sure what you mean by "no recall of an "outside the box moment".  :Confused: 

As for groundless...maybe. I do tend to head into the æthers at times in my thinking and writing because it's where I do my discernment, generally and specifically and hopefully with intent, be able to bring it back to the real world as a useful tool of understanding what Vexes Us and how to work with it. Whether it's right or not, it's mine, I own it, until I change it. 

Mainly because I like the idea of this thread (Shop Truths, Phrases, Tales; and Outright Lies) and the subtitle of ("Why we do what we do") and your allegory tale, I re-read the entire thread again yesterday for flavor and insight before posting my dissertation. In the meantime C-Bag posted his _insightful_ thoughts on the murk of the ne'er do wells and the why of it according to the book and his insights into his interactions with them. So Off I went, trying to tie the themes of this layered thread together in the spirit of their titles and this great Forum, by offering _my_ thoughts/opinions on them, valid or not by any others opinion. And frankly too old (mileage) to gas about who may be watching, when there was never any intent to belittle or offend.

It's obvious now that my typical verbosity and subtle intentions (Weirding Ways of the Bene Gesserit - Dune) to what I wrote were missed or misinterpreted by your response. I did find Franks addendum to his post  :Hat Tip:  most rewarding though, which brings me to a story similar but backwards from his, of the last time I was _concerned_.

In my last 12 year run in Corporate, we had a 25 year machinist (an HP transplant). Nice guy and I respected him and what he could do for 3-4 years. He also taught me a lot about setups, sequence of ops, Cam and what he did to get stuff to the machine. I worked pretty diligently at giving him all he needed to do some of the jobs we had and for some of the 1-2 off R&D stuff I did. Even lobbied and for him to get things for his shop (like a new knee mill) and bought tools from my budget for his shop. He and I became pretty good friends. He knew that I was pretty good with computers and had some trouble with his at home. Invited me over for dinner with him and his wife a few times. His wife was a quilter and because I wouldn't take any money for the help I did for them they presented me with a beautiful king size quilt she made...still have it and cherish it.

I was engineering manager by then and was out in the shop dropping off some stuff in sheet metal (A real wizard there) and doing my usual check in with people and stopped by to check in with him. He was doing a job on some explosion proof housings for a product we made in several varieties and had that look. We had an old Mori Seike that he didn't like because he had better stuff at HP. We had put a new spindle and bearings in it a few months back and was there when they finished up and ran the test runs on it...it was dead on to about 3 tenths. The fixture he was using only did 2 off and required the 4th axis for some of the ops, and was pretty tired and I really didn't like the way it held the parts. We chatted about what was happening and I looked up and saw the 55 gallon drum scrap bin was full of these housing. These are ~$300 per castings...so that was probably about $8-$10k worth...Oh Crap! The bad thing was they had a pretty long lead time so we bought about 100 at a time for price and to have them...and this was a pretty big order of 25 IIRC...and I had about 14 balls in the air at the time, with a new fire drill.

The short of the production run was that we came up some better hold points that held it tight and found he had changed his touch of point to a place he found easier to work from...but was not part of the internal or already machined point that we received from them. Got them out the door on time but it was a row to hoe!

After it was over I said I was going to talk to the vendor and get the actual casting/machine drawings for them and design a 6 off fixture that would lock them in properly and allow it to work better with the fourth axis. Also my guys and I went over the assembly drawing with a fine tooth comb. Luckily I/we had a pretty good relation with the supplier and after a chat with the owner we got copy of their latest drawings. What I noticed was they used Geometric Tolerancing on theirs, but mainly it was the casting tolerances I wanted. I had talk to our guys before as I had done quite a bit in the past and they poo-pooed it, so we didn't much other than concentricity and a few others once in a while. Bottom line was, I designed a killer fixture with his help and we did update our drawings with some Geometric Tolerancing because it was prudent!

About 6 months later I was out in the shop again and stopped by to check in and here he was doing them on the old 2 off fixture I thought had gone in the scrap bin or re-purposed. When I ask why, he said he only had a couple to do and it was easier. I Looked at the bin...nope...Ok, and said why aren't we building these bases for stock...Oh So and So dropped the order off. I had worked with Inventory to make sure we had these on hand and what the refill levels would be. Checked with Inventory and someone had bypassed the refill min levels. The worst part was of this ClusterTruck was that 6 off $2k fixture that worked perfectly because I was there when we ran it, sat on the shelf and he eventually told me he hated Geo-tolerancing. All I could say was You worked for HP for Blinking sake on tiny BeCU parts and how could you do that without Geo-Tolerancing...the program files were already written...it became clear.

That we pissed away $10-$12K in material and all the time and effort to help out and do it Right, was about the last time I was _concerned_. Except that he had dropped a foot long log of 4" brass on his foot about a year after the incident and left on disability and never came back...that _concerned_ me too...because I liked him actually. 

P.S. Vexus is the title of a book I started years ago about what Vexes Us...never finished it and finally realized it's probably an encyclopedia instead of a book. Add to it once in a while...who knows...my kids might get something from it.

----------

C-Bag (Aug 7, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Aug 7, 2016)

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## Frank S

> TM51, 
> 
> 
> It's obvious now that my typical verbosity and subtle intentions (Weirding Ways of the Bene Gesserit - Dune) to what I wrote were missed or misinterpreted by your response. I did find Franks addendum to his post  most rewarding though, which brings me to a story similar but backwards from his, of the last time I was _concerned_.
> 
> In my last 12 year run in Corporate, we had a 25 year machinist (an HP transplant). Nice guy and I respected him and what he could do for 3-4 years. He also taught me a lot about setups, sequence of ops, Cam and what he did to get stuff to the machine. I worked pretty diligently at giving him all he needed to do some of the jobs we had and for some of the 1-2 off R&D stuff I did. Even lobbied and for him to get things for his shop (like a new knee mill) and bought tools from my budget for his shop. He and I became pretty good friends. He knew that I was pretty good with computers and had some trouble with his at home. Invited me over for dinner with him and his wife a few times. His wife was a quilter and because I wouldn't take any money for the help I did for them they presented me with a beautiful king size quilt she made...still have it and cherish it.
> 
> I was engineering manager by then and was out in the shop dropping off some stuff in sheet metal (A real wizard there) and doing my usual check in with people and stopped by to check in with him. He was doing a job on some explosion proof housings for a product we made in several varieties and had that look. We had an old Mori Seike that he didn't like because he had better stuff at HP. We had put a new spindle and bearings in it a few months back and was there when they finished up and ran the test runs on it...it was dead on to about 3 tenths. The fixture he was using only did 2 off and required the 4th axis for some of the ops, and was pretty tired and I really didn't like the way it held the parts. We chatted about what was happening and I looked up and saw the 55 gallon drum scrap bin was full of these housing. These are ~$300 per castings...so that was probably about $8-$10k worth...Oh Crap! The bad thing was they had a pretty long lead time so we bought about 100 at a time for price and to have them...and this was a pretty big order of 25 IIRC...and I had about 14 balls in the air at the time, with a new fire drill.
> 
> ...



 Along about the fall of 88 A very long time friend of mine and in part one of my mentors of years gone by, called me one night asking me if I would consider taking over as shop manager and R&D trouble shooter. I was fairly comfortable running my 1 man mobile machine and repair service. I had actually reached a level that even with all business deductions and other write offs I was still earning enough to have to pay income taxes every 1/4 so life was good money in the bank and some decent long range lucrative safe investments well on their way to maturity. I had no real interest in change at the time. That was before a 1000 lb hunk of metal from a dozer blade conversion I was doing tried to make a pancake out of me. I was alright afterwards just a T12 compression fracture NO SURGERY afterwards. However it would be years before I would be comfortable doing the heavy lifting I was accustomed to Anyway he heard about my incident and called me again with a significantly better offer (or so it seamed at the time) 2 kids in school one getting near college age weighed heavily on this as well. 
The next Monday I rolled into the factory with my mobile set up and proceeded to tell the workers to find a 30 by 30 spot to unload the nearly 1/4 M worth of tools and equipment that there was a new sheriff in town and I was wearing the badge.
About an hour later the previous shop manager showed up and introduced me.
His exact words to them were I have been preying for MR Frank to join this company for 3 years the only thing that has changed so far as you are concerned is he is my boss and owns a sizable slice of this company. We will be creating a R&D plus quality control and safety testing facility in that 30 by 30 spot where you placed his grip.
Long story even longer; Over the next few months the scrap bin weight was reduced to the point of being laughable. But the main change to cause this was mostly due to rearranging a few workers and machines giving some of them 2 and 3 tasks so the guy responsible drilling the parts also ran the band-saw and disk sander for de-burring. He soon learned that his job was made a lot easier if he A. cut the parts to the correct size B. made sure to lightly sand all surfaces prior to placing them in the drill jigs and C. keep his bits sharp 
In the welding department we made more substantial fit up jigs that were heavy enough yet open enough to fit up and weld out instead of removing the parts before weld out. critical weldements went into the oven while still in the fixture for normalizing then to cleaning then machining if the process required.
However I to this day feel that the best thing we did was when I started at random taking the shop guys out on installs. It was then that they learned just how important it was to build things right, because when you have several hundred components shipped 12 or 12,000 miles and every thing had to fit together and fit together correctly.

----------

C-Bag (Aug 7, 2016),

HobieDave (Mar 4, 2020),

Paul Jones (Sep 1, 2016),

PJs (Aug 6, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Aug 7, 2016)

----------


## C-Bag

In our case most of the guys in the shop thought it was some kind of treat to go out on installs, but the one guy in assembly who was most responsible for screwing up the install would not go out. He would put things together finger tight because he could impress the bosses with how many conveyors he could assemble in one day. When they started arriving in a pile because the ride in the truck had shaken them a part they just switched guys, never said anything to him. 

Then they gave the job to a guy who equally tried to impress by using an air ratchet to assemble everything. But when the install guys tried to fix or mod something they couldn't get the thing apart. They were harping on us in the shop one day how we needed to speed up by using air ratchets instead of manual ratchets, I asked the boss do you know the correct torque on a regular 3/8" bolt? Deer in a headlights, I let him off the hook and said 35ft lbs. Still the deer. I noted the air ratchet can put at least 35 -50ft lbs, but it's the extra that every guy who uses one all the way out on the end next to the air coupling, turns it into 90+ft lbs. if not stripped it's stretched and a wooly bugger to get off and probably can't be reused. Needless to say they hated me because I never used an air ratchet even though I could use one properly. If needed I used a 3/8" air pistol that was smaller, could be set for proper torque and was faster. But because they refused to screw all the air hoses into the air lines on one end so they couldn't walk off, the air hoses were constantly disappearing (into the field as the field guys had keys to the shop and would come in and "resupply" at night)and you spent more time trying to find one than doing the job.

Like Edwards Demming so rightfully points out all this stuff is NOT the fault of the worker, it's the fault of management. It's why no American manager knows of him and why Deming made Japanese industry into the powerhouse it is. Making quality the focus not quantity and making the guy on the floor a part of the whole process instead of just a stupid tool.

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PJs (Aug 7, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Aug 7, 2016)

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## Toolmaker51

> TM51, 
> I am a bit _concerned_ why you would think I have "Concern" about a "Label" for these people or some fear that they may be lurking on the forum here. I'm not even sure what you mean by "no recall of an "outside the box moment". 
> 
> As for groundless...maybe.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, despite efforts in clarity I get wound up, on occasion. 
The intent was you personally should have no concern of being labeled for anything but the finest sort of mentor. The electronic posts with Rendo prove that, among others. Your comment was if you were seen by others in such a manner.

On lurking, we have no concern about lurkers. Tend to not even recognize themselves, unless they write it.

And 'out of the box' was that I have no recall seeing that reform, exhibited in that variety of personality.

And, I realize even though they have little control of me, its easily trumped by the supervisor and GM as my allies. I function with autonomous approval from the super and GM. But d1/ d2 have some insecurity, as if I'd take their jobs overnight. It is a source of irritation new to me. I'm not perfect by any means, but never had issue where my choices, abilities, and resources were disregarded so blatantly.
Were it not out of respect for super and GM, d1/d2 would be up the legendary creek sans a means of propulsion for sometime; and a vacant spot where my box is stationed.

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## Toolmaker51

FLASH Return of the dufus's (dufii ?) Dateline 1120 CDT, Kansas, USA 

Beware of programs titled 'Knowledge Preservation'. AKA 'Process Documentation'.
Those of you familiar with my dufus's 1 & 2 will have background on the tribulations endured in a failing manufacturing facility. There are now only 3 more cars in the 'dirt' parking lot than those on asphalt; reserved of course for salaried personnel. While we're currently working jobs scheduled for November of '16, Sales and Quality spend a portion of their time on 'spaghetti drawings' to track footsteps, productive ratings of brake, laser, and welders, even the burr-hand; yet the queue of job travelers is all but dried up. And 'Process Documentation'. WTF? Sales better to get on the horn, the web, a horse, even carrier pigeon wouldn't you think? 

One product we make, is an electrical enclosure for some variety of over the road tanker. It's a weldment of HRPO 14ga., box entirely welded watertight, rimmed lid and gasket attached with 8 screws. Its painted wrinkle black 100%, even the piercings for cannon sockets. Previously labored with masking dots to cover those holes to maintain conductivity of ground for case and contents. Conditions in the o/s vendor powder paint usually blew off the masking. Somehow the 'Inspector' (me) was roped into removing said paint of first two orders. Was no shred of tooling for the task. 
Clueless twits go blank when queried on *'how many frickin' Fred's you figgerin on gettin' fer free'?* So, now and again the 'Inspector' is suddenly 'Tool Maker' too. 

Of course, I conceived, designed, and built a whole set of tooling. 1. Fixture to hold box upright and rigid. 2. Guide plate for cutters, a single piece for three adjacent holes, including the anti-rotation flat, held by one keyhole washer and cap screw. 3. Ordered .437 reamer to shorten. 4. Ordered back spotface and shank. (mr. 25 years had NO clue what that was or it's function). 5. Made three different diameter spotface cutters, that pilot in the guide plate. (two are large, about 1.9 diameter and _tricky me_ are LEFT HAND rotation tee hee only works in one machine, whole setup was too high for a knee mill anyway HaHaa. 

Late this morning I'm 'advised' I _NEED_ to run aforementioned parts; delivery is already late, hot customer and all that BS. And dufus 2 intends to document the setup-run procedures. How much shop experience is needed to deduce/ analyze/ reason how a set of spotface tools are used to cut paint? 
Told him I never signed a release to be filmed (they have no such document here). 

Parts arrive, I unpack, look over papers from vendor and prints to sign off that operation. He shows up. "Go ahead and set up, during his quick lunch so he can record later.

I was ready for that. "Look here, these are posted INSPECTION GUIDELINES, TRAVELER EXAMINATION, and INSPECTOR JOB DESCRIPTION - ain't jack sh-t about running production, machine work, rework, straightening parts, designing or building fixtures and tooling. NO one's paid a lick of attention to how I get this stuff fixed up and out the door, conducting inspections all the while, without any compensation for practical knowledge being applied. ANYTHING YOU RECORD AMOUNTS TO THEFT OF INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY". I reminded him of our ex-comptroller whose plant closed under similar conditions; they'd also recorded setup notes. When everything went to auction they destroyed files associated with tooling ''we don't give away info - we sell knowledge''. Shocked, he disappears, along with drawing needed to proceed. 

Most I know, but drawing present during work is a requirement. Later he shows up with his minidigicam, shooting off pics of tools in chucks; ignorant of the fixture, why a certain drill press is used, reverse rotation, how the back spotface is used, or realizing that one tab is stainless not steel, rpm-lube-feed and tying the part down. Not even Cliff-Notes!

I guess preservation depends on ability to scope the job.There's been no justification of what makes this important. In 18 months there hasn't been any physical improvement in anything connected to inspection. Sales is deficient in organizing processes, but throwing in mounds of prints is supposed to satisfy the 'ISO quality program'. Who hasn't heard of copy/ paste? Needless to say broad atta-boys aren't practiced on anyone, in any way shape or form.
Thankfully, the Company newsletter points to diversified safety team, first responders, the 10% who went on picnic and whose going to have a birthday, and a plea for volunteers to commit off time toward cleanup of local Missouri River bank! Yeah, corporate gets credit for public outreach, helpers get mosquitoes, cottonmouths or some mysterious septic condition.

We know what it _really_ is. A layoff, reduction (or other lame terminology) approaches, thinking sketchy crib notes are going supplant cumulative 100's years experience, dedicated employees and toolboxes with some salaried shmuck, who is without so much as a tape measure.

Bet not.

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C-Bag (Aug 25, 2016),

PJs (Aug 25, 2016)

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## C-Bag

Remarkable but all to common story. I have no idea where this came from where it seems to be held you can get a herd of dufii from a temp agency and throw them into the middle of a hot job. And that everything will go as the front office has sold the job for. And there was never any documentation on any machinery and even if there was dufii would not refer to it.

In my case they made everybody sign a release so our "intellect" was their property.

It reminds me of the old joke of the guys betting against a pre recorded football game they have seen before. The very epitome of insanity where you keep running the same scenario over and over expecting a different outcome.

My biggest problem in situations like that was they kept giving me "helpers" and then yell at me because we were talking too much! I asked one boss how am I supposed to tell him how to do the job? I guess they though monkey see monkey do, or some kind of pack mentality would cause spontaneous expertise, dunno. I dumped 9 out of 10 dufii because of no general mechanical aptitude and most of all unsafe work ethic. A guy got his leg jammed through a 1200lb rotating carriage because no safety locks and they were using 2x4" to hold the carriage in place. One guy with 4 dufii and he couldn't keep an eye on all of them. 

Thats why us experienced guys sent the temps/ dufii off to do little odd jobs when we were doing the heavy dangerous stuff because we didn't want to get killed. A good friend who did the same work for a different co. was crushed to death when a machine fell on him.

----------

Paul Jones (Sep 1, 2016),

PJs (Aug 25, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Aug 25, 2016)

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## PJs

TM51, 

First off ISO is pretty much a joke in most places to get orders (like $10-$20k for a CE approval) based on an "apparent standard of practice". I did a fair amount of vendor qualification over the years all over the country, some Canada and Europe and found most of the ISO businesses in scramble mode trying to keep up with it and some of the pedagogue inspectors. It's also permeated with paper-wasters trying to come up with a scheme to keep their jobs, collect insignificant data and satisfy ISO requirements...All in my humble opinion of course. Not that I disagree with the concept of a Standard of practice for manufacturing...but it's been muddled beyond recognition in a lot of instances...another mouse built to gubment specs.

Small story: I was once task with building a "show" unit for our reps and trade shows with tough specs. It had to be about the size of a bread box, <90lbs, wheels/handles, clients see the operation of it from 50', and a crate to ship it around the world and survive multiple times, all right side up of course. Most of our units were the size of a refrigerator or beer frig's. Really an R&D project that included all of our technology and some new stuff I came up with to fit in a small box the reps could handle...and a quartz bell jar no less. It ended up being a 83lb blivet. I did all design and about 85% of the build except for sheet metal and some trick machining on the 7075 flange and stainless feed-through for the tiny cryo-coil, with < 5% loss. 

The thing that happened was as I was getting close to finishing it. I was sitting in my little R&D space with all these technologies on the bench and had just finished building a very unique stack technology (Cryo-refrigeration) I had come up with for space saving and here comes the VP-Sales with a bunch of Japanese guys we were negotiating with to license our technology. They all had cameras and as soon as they entered started shooting pictures of everything including my new stack...I actually hollered at the VP...What are you doing! OH, Oh it's ok they are with me and we're on a shop tour and thought I would show them what you are working on. My jaw dropped and I threw a towel over my stack. Believe it or not I got called on the carpet for yelling at him in front of them. Funnier yet was the VP was a 25yr Big Blue (IBM) guy! Nuff Said! NDR's, yeah right....let a lone job descriptions, really?

Sorry to hear about your friend C-Bag. That's a hard one to swallow! Good for you to dump the 9 for safety and sanity. Worked with some temps over the years and think your number is about right!

Old, old saying I just made up: The hard part with dufi is herding them to water but it's much tougher to hold all their heads underwater at the same time without getting kicked.

 :Hat Tip:  ~PJ

----------

C-Bag (Aug 25, 2016),

HobieDave (Mar 4, 2020),

Paul Jones (Sep 1, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Aug 25, 2016)

----------


## C-Bag

> Old, old saying I just made up: The hard part with dufi is herding them to water but it's much tougher to hold all their heads underwater at the same time without getting kicked.
> 
>  ~PJ



 :ROFL:  

What was that VP of yours thinking??? I guess if he didn't understand it, nobody else would......

My buddy getting killed was a real shock. He was a rough and tumble guy as you'd expect a millwright to be. So he just seemed invincible. And he was much younger and they had just had a baby the spring before. All of us who knew him were stunned. He worked with much more qualified true professional crew. So it really came home to me how precarious my situation was working with guys that seemed like they picked them up out in front of the local Home Depot that morning. 

I got sent out on an emergency crew to get a project back on track and clean up what was being complained about by the owner of the install. They had already sent back the good equipment so I was forced to use a cut off blade ( what we all called a suicide blade) on my 5" Makita angle grinder. I was carefully cutting the piece and was moving my clamps when one of the temps said " be careful man". I looked at him, well duh I thought. But he continued " them things is dangerous" and I agreed. While I'm fitting up my clamps he says "yeah, I won't use one no more" and lifted up his t-shirt to show me a scar across his belly! Now, that would have gutted any normal person and for the life of me I can't even fathom why anybody would be in a position with one of those things to have it get away from you and go across your belly. He was the best of those three temps  :Frown:

----------

Paul Jones (Sep 1, 2016),

PJs (Aug 25, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Aug 25, 2016)

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## PJs

> What was that VP of yours thinking??? I guess if he didn't understand it, nobody else would......



He wasn't my "Vice President"...but had some other non PC terms for "VP" & him, especially after being called on the carpet.

Such a loss with the baby and all and a rising star to boot.  :Headshake:  :Sweating:  I sure get your point though about s@@ing your precarious position and becoming more aware around them.

Here's another saying on a piece of wood we have by the front door. We see it when we head out into west county traffic. 

"I have gone out to find myself...If I return before I get back, Please keep me here." 

Some how seem apropos here but not sure Dufi would get it. Think it also applies to getting older  :Wink:  but brings a smirk to me every time!

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C-Bag (Aug 27, 2016),

Paul Jones (Sep 1, 2016)

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## Toolmaker51

C-Bag related a situation and consequence I dread; more than anything that might happen to me personally. 

I've not experienced loss of a co-worker by accident; some serious injuries and near misses, not any deaths. Family-wise we've had some. Worst probably, elderly couple gathering holiday decorations from garage rafters via ladder. He fell from top, landing directly on her. He survived a short time, the 'guilt' took him as well.

While in USN, we often did breakdowns of scenarios or actual reports, and one thing was common. Lack of awareness was usually first and experience second, equipment not often tagged as cause - as traceable back to the first two. Navy generally avoids phrase 'accident'. System named 'cause analysis' traces outcome from root, avoidable only until a certain and tangible point. 
Carrier flight deck is supposedly one of most dangerous environments, my interpretation was that should be 'potentially'. It is so finely orchestrated, even incidents are minimal. I'd say mining, chemical plants, and certain fires would lead the way for 'potential'; because there is either no where to go, or the rapidity and spread cover available distance too quickly! 

I appreciated that approach to safety right off; experience-based logic with acceptable/ manageable risks. DEFINITELY not the OSHA vision based on paranoia and insurance company style probabilities. Strikingly, today did a test reworking incomplete features in a laser cut plate, drilling 7/8" through 1/4" hot rolled. Had it tied down well, standing WTH out of way, envisioning the helix taking hold and peeling it out, yet I'll dance with a 48" lathe without much concern at all. Anyway, proof of concept says a bushing plate is the way to go.

In case it isn't clear; I'll reiterate personal appreciation for all contacts we cultivate here. I see two are present in this thread right now, three members and no guests. Yup, its fun too, coining words, tossing in our 2 cents, and all. 
But the measure of sanity derived from a simultaneous front row seat and audience makes a considerable difference in my day!

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C-Bag (Aug 27, 2016),

Paul Jones (Sep 1, 2016),

PJs (Aug 29, 2016)

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## Toolmaker51

PJ's brought up ISO. 
I'll recommend 'my' calibration house, Long Island Indicator. Their site is most authoritative, definitive standard on which I rely. MIL-STD, AGD, DIN and all the rest. 

Home page is 027 : Long Island Indicator Service : Sales, Repairs and Spare Parts 

But what really sets them apart is at the bottom of 002 : About Standards and Specifications (Their statement verifies publicly, VERY publicly, a common reaction shared by a sizeable portion of our HMT community).

What has ISO got to do with it?

Not much. As we've all found out, ISO certification is a kind of smoke screen designed to give the illusion of integrity. We've had ISO certified companies send us checks that bounce. So much for any kind of integrity.

It is a membership in a fraternity of sorts and the membership dues are very steep indeed. $10,000 to $30,000 is not uncommon and then there are annual fees on top of it. Members of ISO are supposed to do business only with fellow members and that's how the organization maintains itself. It hasn't got much to do with the quality of the products but everything to do with red tape and paperwork. So much paperwork in fact that usually one or more staff member needs to be hired just to fill out the forms.

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C-Bag (Aug 27, 2016),

Paul Jones (Sep 1, 2016),

PJs (Aug 29, 2016)

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## Frank S

The company I was with while in Kuwait pretty much had started out as a simple sales install and service company with a total staff of 20 . 
It all started when they purchased a couple of my freight elevators and begged me to visit Q8 to supervise the install I thought why not after all I hadn't been to Q8 since late 91 while the fires were still smoldering 
Anyway There I was with just about nothing to do their installers were top notch and could follow the somewhat meager installation manual I had hastily put together for the lifts prior to shipment.Their Client was the country's most prestigious Toyota body shop. the client's requirements for my lifts had changed from the time I had manufactured and shipped the lifts till the time the install was being preformed.
The client and 3 or 4 of his financial backers came to my hotel room along with the owner of the company who had placed the order with me to ask me if it would be feasible to modify my machines prior to the completion of the install.
Well I was thinking Oh sure, I'm over here supposedly for a 3 possibly 4 day install and now you want me to make extensive modifications my machines that took me weeks to manufacture. When actually what came out of my mouth was no problem, but it is going to be a little expensive to bring my machine shop and equipment over here. 
Well couldn't you use a local machine shop and hire some men to help?the client asked Then Saad said that I could have my pick of his best installers The clueless 7 I called them, who incidentally later became and remained the core of my factory staff which grew to over 70 at times with 20 engineers during the 10 years we were over there 
So now I'm thinking language problems I don't speak Arabic and no one in Saad's company who speaks English has a clue about mechanical or structural engineering terms.
But none the less the next day Saad's brother becomes my personal chauffeur we are on a mission like he has never heard of in his life I need to locate a jobber type machine shop and steel supplier a shop with a shear and break an industrial supply and some placer to purchase some UHMV or tough nylon as they called everything 
Additionally We had to locate a suitable facility to rent where I could do do my fabrication 
6 weeks later the 2 lifts had transformed from 3 ton cap. to 5 ton and instead of going from the ground floor up 5 meters to the mezzanine they went from the basement up 6 meters to the ground floor ( I got lucky there as I had made my hydraulic cylinders over-sized with a longer stroke than originally necessary because I had the materials in stock) with drive through capability while the platform was at ground level with numerous added automatic safeties and barrier guards.
This was in the late fall of 2002, before the bullets had started flying up in Iraq in early 03 my wife and I had relocated to Q8 with a 45 ft High cube container filled with enough of my equipment to start up a small factory.

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Paul Jones (Sep 1, 2016),

PJs (Aug 29, 2016)

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## C-Bag

TM51,

A flight deck on a carrier is a perfect example of a really dangerous situation that because it's drilled into everybody it IS dangerous, is more safe than you'd think.

Somehow it always seemed like there was something trying to give demo's or premonitions to make me aware of my surroundings. And I always took heed. 

A couple of years before I got my first car I was having a snack in the kitchen after getting home from school and I started hearing this wailing. It sounded like something from a TV movie. It was followed by sirens so I went outside to see what was going on and I see paramedics and crowd down the street. I watched from our yard about 8-10 houses away, not wanting to add to the gawkers. 

I found out later it was this older woman who was doing the screaming and running up and down the street. The neighbors called 911 and the woman would not calm down and nobody could figure out what she was screaming about. Finally somebody noticed her son's hand sticking out under the old POS car he was always working on in the driveway. He was sitting up under with no Jack stands and somehow it had come down on top of him folding him head between his knees. He couldn't get enough breath to yell but when his mother came out she saw him under the car and went hysterical. While they were trying to calm her down her son suffocated. 

I had walked by him on my way home. Needless to say I'm paranoid of getting under anything that's not supported properly. And for the first 7-8yrs of being a mechanic I worked alone.

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PJs (Aug 29, 2016)

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## Frank S

I helped a friend of mine get started in an exhaust repair business. I even made his 4 post lift and tubing bender a few years later I stopped by and he had bought a 2 post lift . He had a car up on it and was really jerking on some bolts trying to break them loose. the car was rocking so bad it looked like it would fall off.
I spied the 4 extended height safety stands that had been supplied with the lift just filling space in a corner of his shop.
I hollered at him to stop and use those stands or I might just forget the number to 911 if that car fell on him.
But I'm almost finished besides those things are a pain to drag around for a 2 minute job.
OK then use the 4 post lift I gave you.
But it is hard to use on these front wheel drive cars.
Look I said you can use the safety stands a 1000 times and never need them but not use them only once when you did need them. 
There is a good reason they have so many training drills on a carrier. You have almost 5 acres of open deck area with 100's of potentially the most dangerous activities on the planet occurring at the same time, save for possibly the mining industry. and offshore drilling platforms

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Paul Jones (Sep 1, 2016),

PJs (Aug 29, 2016)

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## Toolmaker51

I Expanded my 'personal' library...yours too; and yours, all the guys over there, and the members of tomorrow!


Just found the "Digital Public Library of America', currently listing 13,997,962 individual reference documents. Now, you might want endless shelves of such material, I enjoy and value print too. But often they are difficult to identify correctly, find, or afford. This is not commercial in the sense of Cramamazon, or roundy-round searches via Ibay. 

https://dp.la/

My first search consisted of the following. This is what an apprentice-newbie-fng learns, or ANY accomplished machinist thinks before about opening Machinists Handbook.
Despite what some consider 'glaring' errors, you'll be hard pressed to find info deeper on the overall subject of serious one-off machine work than these publications. From NAVEDTRA (dept of Naval Education & Training) branch of NAVPERS (dept of Naval Personnel) MACHINERY REPAIRMAN 3&2 10530-E1 and MACHINERY REPAIRMAN 1&C 110531-B. The 3/2/1/C are enlisted paygrades of USN petty officers, so 3&2 are entry level. There are illustrations, charts, graphs Another poster on another site stated MR's not 'machinists' in the true sense. The reaction there was emphatic and proceeded with illustrating why they are; and like workers anywhere, show different levels of expertise. But the equipment, tooling, materials, and materials available, make most any of us drool.
1.]They open pdf. and printable - I'd suggest transporting file via USB thumbdrive to whatever version you have of a office supply or printshop. 
2.]The cost of two-sided and collated print will be more than worthwhile; if saved in a proper binder or actually having it bound. 3.]Opt for paper heavier than standard 20lb printer-copy paper, to withstand hours of perusal, thumbing and certainty of dogeared corners. 

And Jon; if you see this I'm campaigning; a forum section at HMT as a reference library. Not texts - accurate descriptions and links we find. I invite thanks as an endorsement, sort of a vote for who thinks this worthwhile.

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C-Bag (Aug 29, 2016),

Paul Jones (Sep 1, 2016),

PJs (Aug 29, 2016)

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## C-Bag

Cool find TM51, but I don't know if I'm doing something wrong or? Signed up for DPLA, found the MACHINERY REPAIRMAN 3&2 10530-E1, it refers me to another site and says I have to log in to DL. It doesn't list or recognize my log in with DPLA? And the DPLA is not an affiliated "institute".

Signed,
Lost in Circular Clickyland

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Paul Jones (Sep 1, 2016),

PJs (Aug 29, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Aug 29, 2016)

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## PJs

> Cool find TM51, but I don't know if I'm doing something wrong or? Signed up for DPLA, found the MACHINERY REPAIRMAN 3&2 10530-E1, it refers me to another site and says I have to log in to DL. It doesn't list or recognize my log in with DPLA? And the DPLA is not an affiliated "institute".
> 
> Signed,
> Lost in Circular Clickyland



Hey C-Bag,

Here is what I found. Went to the link (didn't sign up to DPLA cause I don't wanna), cut and pasted the MACHINERY REPAIRMAN 3&2 10530-E1 into the search block "enter". That takes you to the search finding page. Pick the link for "Machinery Repairman 3&2". That takes you to the detail page with Haithi Trust Partner/ U of Illinois contributor page. On the left side of that page is a link to the text. Right Click and open a new tab with the PDF in it...guess what its a google scan doc! Then to the Download full book PDF...and Whalah..."No Download with out being a member of that particular organization". Pick the why Not link...Then you can spend days reading why you can't and Eula after Eula about creative commons publishing and more importantly their Organization to donate to. 

It is interesting that it is an 1981 edition which technically is still copyrighted material unless it was entrusted to U of IL. Aren't they provided for by the Public Taxation and Property taxes from We the People and now they require a Log In by a _pubic_ figure (me) giving up my info to get in the door for Public information. I guess I am still Pubic! Now if there are ~14 million of these not so free docs how many other orgs will I have to join. Did I miss something too? ~¿~

Oh Bedangle me once again with the appearance of free....Honestly I just can't sign up for another give away nor indenture my fine son and his offspring for something that is under a creative commons, let a lone give away my address book...the best you can do is read it on line as far as I can see. *Free is never Free...you have to work to maintain it...right?
*
Like the "Lost in Circular Clickland"...it's like reading the dictionary to me which becomes a MUGWUMP if you've ever done it. 

Don't get me wrong I love old Navy manuals and Airforce too but if you hit the surplus stores you can get them for 50 cents usually, and they smell much better than a PDF. ~PJ  :Hat Tip: 

Sorry TM this just feels to me like another Data Grab and giant cookie drop...if you have Ghostery and s@@ behind some of the curtain! Lovely Idea though!

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C-Bag (Aug 29, 2016),

Paul Jones (Sep 1, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Aug 29, 2016)

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## Toolmaker51

That's a good point PJ. I have the issue versions collected in service and they used to show up in book stores. Maybe more on the coast than here in the Midwest. Anyway the search and title bit worked fine; and that's info to conduct a buying effort with. I suspect there are other repositories for the same variety material. Google books is another, and pages alive enough that 'ctrlF' works. I have a new work in progress...

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PJs (Aug 30, 2016)

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## C-Bag

Just for giggles I went to Amazon and found the Machinery Repairman 3&4 book and when I saw:

This work has been selected by scholars as being culturally important, and is part of the knowledge base of civilization as we know it.

Wow. I don't think I've ever seen that on any book I was looking at.

And a new hard bound vs was only $29, I figured double score. Thank you so much TM51, once again you have helped a FNGnoob get a clue. I'd never heard of this book and even if I did see it on a shelf somewhere(which I might have) I wouldn't have a clue what it was about. And while I probably would have been ok with PDFs I love being able to page through and hopefully it's not got the glaring problems (they warn of that in the write up) right where I need to get a clue  :Smile:   :Bow:

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Paul Jones (Sep 1, 2016),

PJs (Aug 30, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Aug 31, 2016)

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## PJs

TM, Hopefully I didn't stick too big a pin in the idea of this with my rant on privacy for profit. I do think these kinds of books are a foundation to who we've become and may help some of the new gen pique an interest to see how things work in a fundamental ways. They were part of the training that pretty much anyone could take and come away with some skills and wherewithal. but mainly a foundation to grow from.

Glad you got a copy C-Bag and may get one for myself. It's also wonderful that it is recognized as being culturally Important. Most of my early learning in electronics came from Navy manuals and the Radio Amateur's Handbook. To give a clue I built my first O'scope out of scrounged parts and a 3FP7 scope tube I got at the surplus for $3, based on the info in them when I was a freshman or sophomore in HS. It definitely wasn't Osha Approved (no OSHA then  :Wink:  but I knew better than to get near the HV when it was on from the books as well. Think their still in the shed if I didn't loan them out or give them to some young gun over the years.

 :Hat Tip:  ~PJ

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## C-Bag

At $29 for hardcover it was half of what dealers wanted for used! I guess they want hard copies out there stashed so if there is a collapse the info is still there. Unlike digital. 

It will be interesting to read a systematic method as everything I've learned has been piecemeal learn as you go and I know there are big chunks of the basics missing.

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PJs (Aug 30, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Aug 31, 2016)

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## Frank S

Ya know I am about to decide that there is nothing left private any more. I could launch this into the rant to beat all rants on the subject of privacy for profit but Pj has already stated how I feel without my having to type a single word.
On the subject of collecting or building a library of useful and in many cases needed information. I guess that I am unwillingly starting on my 3rd or 4th such libraries 
My first one was started way before I started middle school and by the time I went into the Army had grown to a respectful size. it pretty much filled every crawl space and the attic of my Grandpa's 2 story house when the house was sold no one thought to retrieve the many boxes of literary and technical books I had accumulated. By the time I got out of the Army I had a nice library started which I shipped back to the States from Germany in my household goods while in storage about 60% of my household goods was destroyed in a fire at FT Sill Ok. a large portion of the damage was centered around the carton containing my library not all was lost and the Government was good enough to replace much of the damaged books so library #2 continued until some 15 years later when a divorce consumed it in it's entirety. I spent 20 years building #3. The engineering and technical data section alone occupied a 10 ft long by 9 ft tall section of my several book cases and that was only about 30% of the total size I am also an avid science fiction reader another these took up another 30% the rest was a Hodgepodge of everything else. I suppose that one still exists but I don't have it since it along with everything else of mine and my wife's stuff never returned from Kuwait.
I've tried building up one in digital format, starting with tape drives 5 1/4 floppies 3 1/2 " floppies, scuzzy, hard drives CD's DVD's flash drives you name it I think I have tried most media devices past and present. None are as good as having the books but as I have learned the hard way there is only 1 real storage device that is reliable and the older I get the less reliable it is becoming. With all the advancements in technologies there still is not one which can be used to download the things we have learned over the years into a sure fire permanent yet retrievable storage device.
Maybe we should focus on etching every tidbit of knowledge in actual stone or something else that will last for 1000;s of years.

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PJs (Aug 31, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Aug 31, 2016)

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## C-Bag

I agree Frank. There IS no privacy anymore. It's why I refuse to carry a cell phone and only use it for emergencies. Also don't let my GPS and iPad "use my location". But it's probably being sent anyway.

I feel like that old 60's poster with the mouse standing there flipping off the eagle as its diving down on it. I'm careful about what I download and try not to sign up for stuff unnecessarily. Try to look close and pay attention. But I can't always tell beforehand what I'm getting into. It's sad the net has turned into a data mine field. And while I am totally ambivalent about Amazon and eBay I keep finding what I need there so just like our present political situation I hold my nose and take the leap. Whatchagonnado?

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Paul Jones (Sep 1, 2016),

PJs (Aug 31, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Aug 31, 2016)

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## PJs

Yup, Privacy went out the window 20 years ago when the DMV got FED permission to use SS numbers...then the medical/insurance (mediaeval, legalized gamblers) got a hold of them...securely of course. Lest we forget Y2K and what was really behind that curtain besides panic. Now they are taking DNA samples without our knowledge or consent of our Gkids at birth...wonder what that's for(¿) probably to use with the camera's on every street corner...circumcision is never painless even if you look away. OK Nuff!

Frank: Well put and thoughtful! I'm with you on libraries but have fortunately held onto my core books over the tragedies. Nearly all Heinlein, complete Richard Bach (all signed), EE Doc Smith, physics/math, engineering, philosophy (Whitehead 2nd ed.), extensive esoteric's, etc, plus a few juicy reads like Ludlum (signed)...Love my books, the smell, the act of reading them...all of it. Then there is the stacks next to my chair and bed...Oh no.

I too have gone through the archival stuff with every generation of OS and use a tablet sometimes now for things like a quick read of the Skylark series for the umteenth time (some great adventuresome stuff in those volumes and get something _new every time_). It's interesting that the repositories of information have morphed as well, from the burning of Alexandria to the Library of Congress and now Google...and hopefully here in this great repository of spew and wherewithal by some very bright lights still energized by knowledge and sharing it freely with those that want to learn and grow.

I know you are right that the real repository is in our noodles and it unfortunately fades with time and tribulation. I do like the idea of carving rocks but it won't fit on a google watch very well... :Big Grin:  What was it Blaise Pascal said about sitting quiet in a room?

One final thought from one of my favorites. I was privileged to stay in a hotel (now a BW) in Magdeburg on Goethestraße dedicated to his work quite a few times and once in the Goethe suit at the Westin in Berlin, now in famous movie.  :Big Grin: 

*"For just when ideas fail, a word comes in to save the situation." Johann Wolfgang von Goethe*

 :Hat Tip:  ~PJ

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C-Bag (Sep 1, 2016),

Paul Jones (Sep 1, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Aug 31, 2016)

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## Toolmaker51

> got the glaring problems (they warn of that in the write up)[/U] right where I need to get a clue



. 
Yup, when I read that at the other site, plus appears on Cramazon, and laughed out loud. They are what, editor's? Process Engineers? Journeymen? Programmers? or just Armchair Single Point Threaders. They didn't care to mention even a single example, just discount what some found 'culturally significant'. Now, that's what I'd call a discrepancy! Funny, howsa 'bout typos, misprints or out-dated terminology? 
Or could it be we have no duplication of individual resource-background-experience. Guaranteed not. So, if comfortable with personal abilities, that glare is interpreted and distilled according to conditions at hand. That's what machine work is all about. Watcha' need, whatcha got, make it work. 
I entered and won one second place, three firsts, in four successive San Diego Surface Line Weeks. Sailors competing in fire fighting, damage control, replacing valve packings...things that keep damaged ships afloat. My event was Lathe Operation. They could work just as accurately; but setup and planning (like in production) were my advantage. I also was able to determine at my second entry, dead soft aluminum was supplied for material -gummy as you know what. You started with a blank HSS bit. Common angles only plow that stuff. Guys couldn't recognize the issue, mainly they run cast iron, tobin bronze, red brass and stainless for stems etc. My CO's would enter our teams, everybody's rate listed Hull Tech, Machinist Mate, Electricians and so on, and lil' ol' Quartermaster me. Usually a couple WTF's? or huh's at least. "He's a Reservist". Blank Stare. Many servicemen are good at their rating, maybe joined after high school and the first exposure to tradework. And no other viable experience. Reservists have 2 brains, usually differ in civilian occupation and USN rate. Yup, I was sorta a ringer. Still fair, everyone a work week type of guy.
My FAVORITE trophy. 2001 & certainly _way less_ than 30 of these still around;  sure bet only one in Missouri!

Apparently both of you are after personal copies, glad my endorsement was helpful. You'll see what I mean when you crack them open. Perfection like a Harley-Davidson service manual. Not theory; application. No hype, no advertising other than photo or chart credits, even carefully worded gender ID. Use of terms is spare, but appear in the male form to maintain an 'economy in language'.

Rather to be; than appear.

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C-Bag (Sep 1, 2016),

Paul Jones (Sep 1, 2016),

PJs (Sep 1, 2016)

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## C-Bag

It is odd that they couldn't be bothered to fix a culturally significant tome. What I remember reading was blurred pages, stuff that had to do with either editing or producing the book. And no author credit. Intreaging. I also got the How to run a lathe by O'Brien. Yeah, I'm a noob.

I was a little shocked and gratified when in aircraft school they made it clear from the git go that as a A&P you are EXPECTED to not rely on your memory but to refer to the manuals about anything you were not absolutely positive about or done a million times. And the bigger shock was a A&P was not ranked as a skilled tech because it covered too many areas! 

"Whatcha need, whatcha got, make it work." Indeed. I did get this from another forum. But what keeps me here is the civil nature of the experts with more focus on the aforementioned quote and less on you got foreign junk, were not trained and working in a shop, along with the implied therefore you are an idiot. 

The imparted nuggets of enlightenment are more appreciated than you guys can know because the vast proportion of the folks here only lurk and carry those nuggets away silently. Not me obviously  :Smile:

----------

HobieDave (Mar 4, 2020),

Paul Jones (Sep 1, 2016),

PJs (Sep 1, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 2, 2016)

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## Paul Jones

Toolmaker51, PJs,and C-Bag,

Thank you for the link and information about the "Digital Public Library of America". I used Wikipedia for the Cliff Notes background on https://dp.la/ . Looks like they have the right intentions and another source of information. Just for a test, I searched on the word "metal Lathe" and a few references were from 1940's to 1960's, no surprise there, and then "8080 microprocessor", with references centered on 1975, as expected, and then "steam engine", and bingo the mother lode of hits from 1629 to today, with the majority from mid-19th century to early 20th century (e.g., year 1900 with 90 items). I will add this to my list of websites for research the old fashion way before Google invented Google search. Thank you for the information.

Paul

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C-Bag (Sep 1, 2016),

PJs (Sep 1, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Dec 9, 2016)

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## C-Bag

Welcome to the cul de sac party Paul!

Thanks for the check on DPLA. You and Wiz are much more 'puter savvy than I and was thinking I didn't know enough about it to go messing with it. Especially after getting whacked by a particularly nasty virus a couple of months ago. Not to mention I've had some kind of mysterious surge in spam to my email. 

That tip alone about steam was enough to make me wade back in again. I would appreciate if you do get some kind of deep background on DPLA that changes their status of trustworthiness please give us a headsup.

----------

Paul Jones (Sep 3, 2016),

PJs (Sep 1, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 2, 2016)

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## Paul Jones

C-Bag,

I will see what I can find out with DPLA. 

If you ever have any doubt about what you are clicking on an Internet link then DON'T CLICK ON IT. It is not worth the risk. This also applies to your smart phones as well. Also, it is a good idea to Google yourself at least once a month with all different combinations of names and addresses of yourself and family members. You would be surprised at what is already out there. Too late for us to be off the radar.

I have been using computers since 1968 when punch cards and punch tape were about as fast as you could get in trouble with a computer on a machine rated at 1 MIPS and had some core memories. In graduate school we got sick and tired of spending our research grant for computer time at the campus data center and built our own room full of Data General minicomputers and peripherals for running computer simulations. I have a MS and PhD in geophysics and all my computing was performed on the Data General equipment. Later working in oil and gas exploration I had data processing algorithms that sometimes ran in cpu months on supercomputers (many geophysical equations require complex numbers so you have both the real and imaginary parts to compute and has to be done in floating point double precision because of round off problems after billions of multiplies and divides). The real trick to supercomputing is optimizing the I/O (input/output) because the computer can become data starved and you have to get clever with the I/O channels to maximize throughput. Today I have a laptop with a solid state disk and an Intel core i7 chip and I feel like I have my own supercomputer right on my lap. The solid state disk (no mechanical hard drive with rotating disk) really helps the cpu perform its job and really useful in cloud computing.

Anyway, I probably bored most of the readers but I am amazed as to how advanced computers have become over the years.

Paul

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C-Bag (Sep 2, 2016),

PJs (Sep 2, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 2, 2016)

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## C-Bag

I got my copy of Machinery Repairman 3-4 and my first impression was why did they not blow the original up to fill the new page? It's mighty small print( but that seems that way with all print to these aging eyes ) and its got quite a margin of unused blank page where they could have blown it up and killed two birds with one stone. Then they seemed to have had a problem with getting a centered scan because on pages here and there some lines of text at the top of the page were not reproduced. Who knows if that going to be crucial and was that how the original was? The pics have that not that high of quality scan look to them, but all in all, it's easy to understand and has held my attention. So it should do nicely to try and fill the huuuuuuuge gaps in my knowledge. 

Thanks again TM51 for bringing this to my attention as this was a much needed primer.

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Paul Jones (Sep 2, 2016),

PJs (Sep 2, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 2, 2016)

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## Toolmaker51

> C-Bag, Anyway, I probably bored most of the readers but I am amazed as to how advanced computers have become over the years. Paul



.

Anyone feel bored? None I know or see! 
Most of this is a universe; boredom is only deserved by those who know everything in a particular subject. Makes jibes like "_Why yes, I do know everything; just don't remember all of it at once_" so funny.
Little exists without some form of continual development. It also extends through re-discovery and preservation. Hats off to HMT.net
Memorization can be pointless beyond a certain level; you do need to know how and where to access related information. The image of a law or doctors office proves that, reinforced that professionals tend to specialize. And schmooze.
Meanwhile the Trades learn utilization and creativity to surmount challenge; hence we can and do govern our universe.

I'm currently occupied by search for new employer. Half is conducted personally; with a couple of agencies vying for my account too. Both use identical resume. Yesterday was introduced to first agency; named & described a couple places they have in mind. They kindly intoned resume is laden with 'our' particular vocabulary (not jargon) that will intimidate hiring managers; suggesting an edit "for readability".
I kindly declined that occur; readability only eases their job while lowering my potential hourly rate of pay in an offer. I write those as specifically as I can, addressing someone like a leadman. It should equal what's implied by a brand name. Impact is created by vocabulary, and I expend great effort avoiding the 'new speak', it's just hyperbole. Those with less to say, depend on adjectives, verbs etc. to hold attention. 
Today on same resume, interviewed with owner of pretty big metallizing plant. All manual machines. Descendant of grandfather who opened it 60 years ago, been there in some capacity since age of 8. I know little of metal-spray yet we conversed deeply well over two hours. On a Friday afternoon, 3 day weekend and all! 
Sure thing; I'm gonna dilute my resume...

My (hopefully yours too) favorite dufus can't get through an improvement description without 11 'robust' 5 'virtual' and a blank check for 'critical'.
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, ok 1.5" thick, 3/4" fasteners on 4" centers, before close of business. Got it.

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C-Bag (Sep 2, 2016),

Paul Jones (Sep 2, 2016),

PJs (Sep 3, 2016)

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## C-Bag

Well, good luck and I hope you land a good one TM51. I could never seem to hit that sweet spot where I got paid appropriately and had interesting work. But I'm sure your resume is far better than mine.

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## Frank S

I sensed this in #26 good luck in your search.
On another note things which are in your favor have a tendency to become minor but all too often major detriments.
Being an experienced highly skilled craftsman with a stellar work ethic augmented with inventive work through/around skills. 
May be viewed the eyes of some potential employers as a threat. Particularly if said person is not yet comfortable with their managerial skills. These persons are often the son-in-law or nephew or some other person promoted without having paid their dues.
The opposite side of the coin will be an employer who would rather surround their-self with the very best persons they can find. These employers will not care one wit that they cannot understand a potential new hire's C/V or resume. To them it may come off as gobbledygook.Their decision will be based more on the face to face interview.
During my life's work I have joined with 2 companies both of which I could have cared less if I joined with them or not. My base salary before offered enticements would have been more than adequate. However in one case my decision to try and assist in propping up or staying aboard a sinking ship almost until the masthead made contact with the seas can only be blamed on my work ethic. I did come out ahead even though I never collected on nearly 4 years worth of base salary. 
My loss in the second I can attribute in-part as my fault for holding onto the belief that most people are honest but sometimes circumstances beyond their control all too often enter into play. To this event I harbor on ill will.
Talking about C/Vs during my tenure at the second company we were bidding on a quite substantial contract. At the consulting engineers meeting our company had in attendance the owner, myself and 25 of our most promising young engineers. We were in no way low or even competitive bidders if the contest had been based solely on the dollar cost figure. Actually out of 10 perspective bidders we were 2nd highest A company in Northern Europe was only slightly higher than our bid.
Two key aspects won us the bid. #1 our company had a very impressive portfolio which included very detailed C/Vs of all our staff engineers not withstanding (over 1000 pages in all) #2 we were a local company albeit considerably smaller than many of the others both local and off shore, We were willing to expend the funds to purchase any and all equipment required for completion of the contract.
Never dumb down so to speak when it comes to one's resume or as I often call it C/V curriculum Vitae

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C-Bag (Sep 3, 2016),

HobieDave (Mar 5, 2020),

PJs (Sep 3, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 3, 2016)

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## Paul Jones

TM51,

I wish you the best with finding a company where your talent can be fully utilized and appreciated. The third generation metallizing plant is unique because the odds for a company making it through successfully past the third family generation is not very high. 

I know this personally from a good friend whose father started a very successful water pump company but died while he was in college studying mechanical engineering. He came home to help his mother and brother to keep the company running. The sons had work there for many summers but did not know all the details and had to learn fast. Nonetheless, they figured it out, he eventually got his ME degree and the brother a business degree, and turned the company into a tremendous success. 

Now the brothers are my age (mid to late sixties) and their kids are taking over running the company. Their kids are all hands-on and worked their way up from sweeping the floors to working all aspects of the company from doing the machining, customer sales, and engineering. The company has a minimum of 18 month backlog on orders and all by word of mouth. I love during shop tours and have been there when testing 100,000+ gallons/minute pumps with 1000 HP+ electric motors and they build ones twice that size. They have a 10 acre lay-down area used to store castings and house the pump test tank (the tank looks like a large and deep swimming pool with lots of horizontal baffles to slow down the return stream of water from the pumps). They gave me a 12"swing gap bed geared head lathe from their maintenance shop because it was the too small for their current maintenance operations and thought I could use it for my hobby machining (I had to acquire all the QCTP and tooling but very appreciative of the lathe which was in great shape). All their pump designs are parametric and can be scale in any size to fit various CNC machining centers where the largest can swing 72" (and it has a couple of conveyor belts to remove the flood of chips). They even added risers to a big swing Mackintosh-Hemphill lathe to further increase its swing. It was one of the lathes used during WWII to re-machine the 16" gun barrels for the Iowa class battleships. However, I think their new large CNC slant bed lathe is taking over the work performed on the Mackintosh-Hemphill lathe. The kids all have ME and business MBA degrees and I they are already taking the company to the next level with world-wide sales. My friend who is in the middle generation knew about other third generation companies failing so they did things right to make sure the kids were involved early on and well prepared to run the company.

Have a great three day weekend,

Paul

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C-Bag (Sep 3, 2016),

PJs (Sep 3, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 3, 2016)

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## PJs

Boy you guys cover a lot of ground quick. The cul-de-sac is feeling like a circle track at speed.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

First, TM I wish you the Very Best in getting something that suits your skills, acumen and pays accordingly for them. I had the same feeling like Frank that things were heading south by your frustration with dipstick 1 & 2. Resume's are an interesting thing to me and found that a more bullet point single page with a cover letter is what most HR's are looking for. The key to me is in the cover letter and letting them know you walk your talk and how your acumen will benefit them. On the other side of that, most of the jobs I have taken have either been offered or because I Knew I was going to work there and went in, looked em in the eye and shook their hand and off it went.

The toughest resume driven one was with DEC (Digital Equipment Corp) back in the late 80's. I wanted to move more into computers and communications electronics so I could use my edumucation and knew an engineer there. Got called for an interview...Oh my 9 different people, 4 of which were an inquisition panel over two days about 4hrs each day...grueling to say the least. I was pushing forty then and told them what I wanted for compensation...mainly because they wanted me to go to China to oversee their new manufacturing facility and work with the engineers there...a month at a time, several times a year for a couple of years. Would have been a great opportunity at some level but had just gotten custody of my son...which I would have to have worked out. They made an offer about 15% lower than I wanted. Bottom line was they hired a newbie just out of school, paid him chump change and probably road him till he dropped. Funny too because DEC sold to Compaq in the late 90's because the China thing didn't work out, at least from what I heard. Whew, dodged that bullet. Best of Luck Bud!

Paul; I have to say thank you for bringing some good light to the DPLA link. I look at foot notes too in wiki but not all the time, but this time it really took me down the rabbit hole and researched them the donors, staff, projects, etc. Some Great donors there with Cred. Mostly I was impressed by reading their strategic plan. They have a tough row to hoe with infrastructure and legal/metadata but the heart and purpose is in the right place in my book. I won't give them my email address but if I had any $$ to donate I would.

As for boring some of us (What?) are you kidding? Hopefully I'm not the only one that really loved hearing about all that stuff you did back when core memory was a Big Deal and hand made, let alone hooking mini's together via I/O...Oh My fun stuff I bet. CPM at the end of its time is about as far back as I go, then Osborne's, worked with a couple of Cupid Systems...till now i7, but would love to have a dual Xeon for my graphic box though. I am curious what language you used for your equations(?) or was it all in some machine language...don't know much about the Nova's if that is what they were. That flow analysis software I worked with was probably a descendant of some of the stuff you guys came up with back then. Sorry I get carried away (or should be) but would love to hear more any time your up for it.

Also thanks for great story and the insights on your friends 3 gen pump business...Those are some Big Pumps! Family stuff can be a bit daunting through the generations but sounds like they handled it well as a tight knit family starting young. 

C-Bag; Glad you got your book and hope you get some good stuff from it. Too Bad about the aberrations but it happens with unskilled scanning and PDF generation.

My hat is off to all of you here and on this forum...This Labor Day should be a celebration to us all for what we've brought forward over the years. Happy Labor Day! Salute!! 

Till Then,  :Hat Tip:  :Beer: 
~PJ

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C-Bag (Sep 3, 2016),

Paul Jones (Sep 3, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 5, 2016)

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## Paul Jones

PJs,

I did not plan to get into computing when I applied for graduate school in geophysics. Ironically the grad school for the marine geophysics program wanted me because I knew how to design and build oceanographic equipment (I worked my way through undergrad as a prototype machinist for building underwater instrumentation) and offered a research assistant position that totally paid for grad school and living expenses. When I was 16, I told my parents I wanted to get a PhD in an interesting field of science and probably related to some aspect of oceanography but in a field that paid extremely well. 

However, on my first day in grad school my major professor provided a computer ID and password, and said you will be working from now on with computers and not building geophysical equipment. I was delighted because I could already see where things were headed with computing. I became totally immersed in computing, numerical methods (conversion and approximation of equations into computer code), special function theory, and of geophysics. I minored in mathematics but enrolled in more 400 level and graduate math classes than in geophysics. Most of the integrals and partially differential equations in reflection seismology geophysics have four variables, x,y,z and time, use complex numbers(real and imaginary parts) and lots and lots of dot products. The language of choice in the 70's and 80's was FORTRAN because it handled all the housekeeping for complex numbers, double precision, and matrix multiplies and divides. The compilers in grad school were much simpler than later when I did supercomputer using compilers with three passes for syntax and symantics, the vectorization (instructions for the arithmetic unit to minimizes wasted wait cycles), and the parallelizaton (dividing the compute tasks across all cpu's and synchronizing intermediate results for the next step). You could ask the compiler to dump out the FORTRAN source code after finishing the third pass just for grins, and it looked nothing like what you wrote going in. 

That is how I got into computing and never regretted making this decision. After grad school I was offered dozen of jobs in oil and gas exploration because of my geophysics degree and extensive knowledge of computing (the first oil embargo was 1973, the year I entered grad school, I got my PhD in 1978 and wham we had the second oil embargo in 1979). I developed proprietary 3D seismic reflection processing algorithms used for processing 3D data for closed bids to oil and gas leases in the Gulf of Mexico. Getting the data wrong could mean leaving $100 million on the table compared to the next bidder, and hence the quest for supercomputing to allow multiple data processing runs before submitting the bids. I loved the job but the company put me on an executive fast track program where my last assignment at age 40 was CIO and also president of a telecom subsidiary (lots of world-wide telecom and also pipleline SCADA that we converted to VSAT, and used VSAT for credit card in the pump for extremely fast transaction processing with our own 6.3 meter dish). I never got back into geophysics but I retired when I turned fifty. I now work because I want to and enjoy mentoring employees and learning new and different technologies.

Well, that is how I ended up where I am today. Along the way, I have been a hobby machinist probably starting at age 14 and by 16 built my own metal lathe (looked like a Unimat SL but with a 6" swing). I would use my free period in high school in the school library reading every book on machining, machine tool theory and mechanical engineering. I am still an experimental scientist at heart even if I can only read about it now rather than doing it.

Have a great Labor Day Holiday,

Paul

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C-Bag (Sep 4, 2016),

PJs (Sep 4, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 5, 2016)

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## C-Bag

Never bored Paul, just astounded. That's quite a ride.  :Cool:

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Paul Jones (Sep 4, 2016),

PJs (Sep 4, 2016)

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## Toolmaker51

LABOR DAY 2016

Apologizing on that format; a bit teeny. Click on a couple times, it enlarges fine.

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C-Bag (Sep 5, 2016),

Paul Jones (Sep 5, 2016),

PJs (Sep 5, 2016)

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## PJs

Paul,

I have been on the blessings side with "ask and receive" lately and man did you deliver! Thank You for sharing this with us!! Quite a Journey to say the least and lit so many candles for me it will take days to get through all the rabbit hole diving.  :Wink:  Spent about 2 hours after you posted this and barely scratched the surface, and needed some time to assimilate before responding.

It is most interesting to me about the paths and seemingly innocuous turns we take sometimes that turn an underlying goal into an adventure that brings us so much more, as yours obviously did. Those had to be some exciting times working on cutting edge machines and writing 3D vector math into them with a time function. Had a feeling it was FORTRAN as a defacto standard for science back then...still is but morphed to more object oriented. The amazing thing I learned was you were using it in concurrent form way back then. 

Here is a link some might find interesting I found on my rabbit hunt around your 1Mips comment. Top 500 The list. I know these are FLOPS but still, We've come a long way is right...now heading toward 10M cores.

It's funny for me with math. In grade, Jr, & HS I was well ahead, doing 3d vectors in my 1st year geometry class freshman year because it fascinated me and the standard stuff was too easy (boring and Another reason your work fascinates me so much). HS Trig was very fun/easy and calculus was ok. However I crashed and burned my first semester college Calc, mainly because the teacher was one of those that wrote with 1 hand & erased with the other and little lecture and no TA. The book helped but it all seemed geared to memorizing the ~220 basic formulas, no why's or basic logic to me. Took it in summer to make up and about three hours into it with a different teacher the light finally came on. I had never got anything less than an A or higher until then but made it through 2 semesters of differentials finally with B's. After that they were laying off Phd. EE and took a different path for quite a while, Retail and turning a wrench so I didn't use much above HS level. Even once I got through some ME stuff and Cad and actually did some engineering for all those years it never got used a lot and by that time we had Spreadsheets & MathCad. Probably the most high level was in the flow dynamics stuff and that was pretty much built in. Another interesting journey on a different path...but still like to do sacred geometry with a pencil, ruler and compass. ;-) and in my graphic work too.

The "reflection seismology geophysics" is so fascinating and only scratched the surface in my dive. It's interesting to me partly because of the sound side with the density issues you would have to contend with...let a lone noise. It's also right up my alley because of my long interests in particle theory...actually talked mom in to buying George Gamow's book on particle physics ($40 at the time) for me in HS. Could you please explain "and lots and lots of dot products"? Just didn't get the reference. 8-)

That was quite a fast track, and here I thought 14 balls in the air at once was a lot.  :Big Grin:  Interesting that you piggy backed SCADA with CC data on VSAT...not sure I understand how that might be accomplished and keep it stable (no delays or crash and burns). I would bet its proprietary, yet very coool! I worked with SCADA and HMI stuff in my latter years and enjoyed being able to have a GUI tied to PLCs and such...a systems guy at heart I think, but for me those turns that led me down the R&D paths were some of the most satisfying...and frustrating sometimes.

I am most grateful for your sharing here, the kindness of personality you have brought to HMT, and your wherewithal! An Honor, Thank You!

~PJ

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C-Bag (Sep 5, 2016),

Paul Jones (Sep 5, 2016)

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## PJs

> Attachment 13615
> LABOR DAY 2016
> 
> Apologizing on that format; a bit teeny. Click on a couple times, it enlarges fine.



Nice words TM, Think you are right...if we made a think/do tank...Oh My!

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Paul Jones (Sep 5, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 5, 2016)

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## Paul Jones

Very nice indeed TM51. During my management career, I think establishing several self directed work teams was the most rewarding part of my career. Basically cross-function teams of highly skilled people and some are horizontal thinkers (big picture) and some vertical thinkers (specialists), yet they were very much in tune with each others' strengths and weaknesses, and knew how to deliver and receive constructive criticism to continuously or quantum leap improve and solve difficult problems. We had established five criteria for working together and the fifth and most important was "It had to be a fun place to work". On my LinkedIn bio there are several testimonials by former direct reports who mention the great times we had working together. 

So, I could image us working together and it would be interesting and fun. I hope you all had a wonderful holiday. 

Regards, Paul

P.S. - PJs, I think you would be interested in 3D seismic reflection seismology. In mathematical terms, it is an under determined problem where we have more variables than independent equations to solve uniquely for the variables. In this case the most important unknown variable is the velocity of sound in each rock layer so you guess each velocity and solve through iterative simulations where the velocities can be approximated indirectly by other methods. It is the millions of iterations that require fast computers and kind of like the movie "Ground Hog Day" where you do the same thing over and over with slight tweaks here and there until everything comes into focus in 3D. There is also a lot of signal processes since the hydrophone arrays for marine geophysical exploration are about two miles long towed behind the ship and have many GPS sensors along the 2048 channels or more hydrophone string, use a 0.5 millisecond sampling rate with the sound first penetrating a 10,000' deep ocean column plus another 30,000' of sub-ocean rock strata, with all the reflections coming back up to the hydrophone arrays taking tens of seconds of elapsed time. The sound source is an array of airguns (devices with 2000 psi compressed air carefully released at precise intervals causing a water cavitation bubble and then sound from the water slamming back together to fill the void around 30' below the surface). The initial sound signal looks more like a dampened sine wave so the signal processing tries to massage the waveform back into a single spike and of course there is background noise, ship noise and sea surface noise. It is amazing it even works but it does and it works very well after years of perfecting the techniques. The same technique can be used on land but use Vibraseis trunks with a vibration plate pushed into the ground and encodes a signal that can be detected with a geophone array. The big difference is the ocean column of water is not there but the overburden of unconsolidated soil and surface rock layers plays havoc channeling multiple reflections (kind of like tool chatter) that has to be signal processed out of the data. Luckily the computers and computer programs can do all the housekeeping as compared to teh 1930's through the early in 1950's when these corrections were done by hand with slide rules. In fact I used slides rules until 1973 in grad school when I used an HP 35 calculator shared by others in the department.

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C-Bag (Sep 6, 2016),

PJs (Sep 6, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 6, 2016)

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## Frank S

The contributors of HMT and in particular this thread are an ecliptic consortium to say the least.
I imagine a think/do tank comprised of the several on here would ultimately have to be named the Epicyclic Elliptic Think & Do Continuum. (EETaDTC) This bunch passed the "Q" continuum light years back

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Paul Jones (Sep 6, 2016),

PJs (Sep 6, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 6, 2016)

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## Toolmaker51

Aye Caramba, LOL... was thinking merely along the lines of 'The Forum Group'.

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## Toolmaker51

Just when I'd forgotten all about LinkedIn...Signed on during its infancy tracking my illustrious niece in Europe. Maybe OK for the professional crowd and administrative types - no deal for the blue collars. The dingy connections it drew here made me nuts. Especially when distasteful managers from former employer would list me as a reference!

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Paul Jones (Sep 6, 2016),

PJs (Sep 6, 2016)

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## Paul Jones

Toolmaker51, I know what you mean about LinkedIn. Lately I seem to reject most of my LinkedIn invitations - I am getting more selective in my old age. However, LinkedIn is now becoming the app of choice for most professional headhunters. There are all sorts tricks of the trade to peppering in key words into your LinkedIn profile so your name comes up on the first two pages of the headhunters search criteria. 

Funny about being listed as a reference and LOL to those when they want to land their next job. One thing I did learn is not burning any bridges with past employers no matter how much satisfaction it would be to give them some "advice". It seems there are far less than six degrees of separation now with all the social media available.

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PJs (Sep 7, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 7, 2016)

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## PJs

Hi All,

Thought I would just put this out here because of TM's nice statement and the follow up around the cul-de-sac. I've actually thought about this off and on again, especially since finding HMT. After I left corporate I figured I'd have some time to run off some of the things I had been wanting to bring forward, like some Alt Energy Ideas and a lot of others over the years that got stowed away. I did in a sense, that I designed and built the Hawk's (Harmonic Alchemy Workstation System). Basically it was an A/V clinical delivery system that utilized a lot of old and new tech in one system. Somewhere in the development of that, Ideas for all kinds of things were pretty much rampant and I thought about creating a CO-OP, basically a think and do tank like mentioned above. I don't have all the skills or wherewithal, but a group of like minded souls with varied skills and wherewithal could, and bring more ideas to the table. I kind of put it to the side thinking the Hawk and other stuff around it would create a foundation and some $$. Unfortunately it never unfolded because the economy crashed and my SO and I were ripped off "significantly' by a well known individual.

Like Paul I was blessed to put together and work with some excellent teams over the years. As an engineering manager I was always hands on and considered myself a liaison more than a boss...mainly because I came from the ground up. I implemented a "White Board Brain Storm" meeting were we all came together and brainstormed "unencumbered" how/who/what came down from on high or the blinkin Sales department. Our best effort once was to design, proto, with docs a product in 3 days with 4 people. Wasn't brainsurgery of a product but we did it, ready for production, and Well. Bottom line we were one of the best and most rewarding teams I had the honor of serving with...and had a gas doing it. I took them out to lunch once a month (my dime) for ~4-5 years and made the rule we couldn't talk about work, just have fun! _Paul; I'd be curious what the other 4 criteria were?_

Frank's EETaDTC name was perfect in so many ways but the "Q" thing made me LOL as well as think about this a bit more deeply! (Thanks). Q is one of those semi nebulous (good/Bad) things particularly in electronics, and with people it's more like valence bonds, I think...just a nice glow if it's working well...otherwise it can result in a messy situation.

Like I've said many times I've never been a Joiner for very long and Change Is. The one thing that usually gets me to join, is some defined platform (Criteria) for it's existence and some basic charter to follow, and a cordial group of soles. Something like this needs some nourishing and thought. One thing I think is great about this group is the want to learn and share which we all seem to have a hunger and passion for. That's a plus in my book and we could make up some new Tales.  :Cool: 

Just putting it out there (as usual)...Thoughts? 

Till Then,
 :Hat Tip:  ~PJ

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C-Bag (Sep 8, 2016),

Paul Jones (Sep 7, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 7, 2016)

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## Frank S

Pj, I'm glad to hear there is a fellow devotee of alt energy. From past and sometimes present I keep several alt energy projects on the table. 
OK I'm going to do what I do best and hijack this thread for a moment.
While in Kuwait I designed several wind turbine generators mostly these did not get much further than building a small scale model in my home workshop. I did find and buy 200 surplus gr 40 1"x 2"x 2" neodymium magnets that I planed to use in constructing various sized axial and radial fluxed generators out of some day.
Then after we returned to Texas and our stuff somehow never got shipped these ideas got put on hold .
As a temporary quarters we bought a 1968 GMC buss that had been converted into a motor coach in the early 90s that had toured with the Nascar circuit until sometime around 2006 when a friend of mine bought it. After we bought it from him thinking we might use it as a means to search out a parcel of property in west Texas. Things changed and we only drove it to another friend's place where we parked it and had been living in it until we found our place where we are currently trying to get things moved to.
Right off after we started living in the RV I decided that I wasn't going to tie it to the grid not wanting to establish a permanent grounded Diggs in the thing. I wanted to remain semi mobile but didn't want to have to rely on pouring nearly @ the time $4.00 a gallon diesel in the thing every week. So I bought an array or solar panels 1.2 KW worth then set up a bank of 6 used T105 Trogen and 6 new Continental GC2 batteries and a 1800 watt 3900 watt surge dimensions PSW inverter. that way instead of having to run the main generator 24/7 we only ran it for an hour or 2 every day and sometimes not even that if we happened to have days of full sun and instead of making our meals on the stove we used the induction cooker we might not run the 14 KW Kubota generator for 3 or 4 days sometimes on 100% rape seed oil diesel. So now 3 1/2 years later the bank is aging to the point that I have disconnected 4 of the batteries that have failed due to the 1000s of charge cycles sometimes as many as 3 charge discharge cycles in a single day and since we don't stay in the RV more than a few days to a week at a time now instead of replacing the aging bank we run a much smaller 6 KW Maxim diesel generator for as much as 12 hours a day. with a 3.6 hr per gallon consumption @ $2.00 A gal it is not worth the cost of new batteries at this time.
Other things I have in ALT energy is I have a Listeroid 8 HP diesel with a 6 KW generator mounted with it that I got a couple years back that had been running for the past 8 years exclusively on diesel made from used motor oil. I also got the processor and 400 gallons or oil to reprocess into diesel. the engine only turns @ 600 RPM which means it will run for nearly 4 1/2 hrs per gallon This unit will be incorporated into my backup generator system at the house we are moving into. plus I plan to double or triple the size of my solar array to use at the house after I possibly go grid tie. But for an inverter I will most likely build my own torrid 10 to 15 KW transformer based on the design of a mate down in AU or NZ. the exception will be I want to build it as a 3PH 240v which will mean I will either have to power it off of a very large bank with much larger solar and possibly some wind gen as well or get the energy from the listeroid. or other means as a back up source for either the house or the work shop
END of Hijack we can now resume our regular programming

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C-Bag (Sep 8, 2016),

Paul Jones (Sep 8, 2016),

PJs (Sep 8, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 8, 2016)

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## C-Bag

That's cool Frank you are an alt eng guy. I was surprised to hear you say that as you seemed to be so involved with the petro boys.

I've wanted to live off the grid since the '70's. But circumstances and tech just never got together. But when my wife needed a new car and instead of always buying used and fixing them I started on a hunt. There [I]seems[I] to be so many options but the choices aren't as advanced as they should be for a guy who's been reading sci-fi since the '60's and know what's possible. Through a series of coinkydink's and rabbit worm holes I found myself watching Jay Leno's Garage on U2oob. During a interview with a 3wheel electric car maker Jay kept talking about the tricks he employed to get to work using the least amount of energy with his Chevy Volt. The guy who can drive anything, his daily driver is a freakin' Chevy Volt. It's a plug in hybrid that goes 50mi on a charge then the gas kicks in. BTW, this is my first American car.

The Volt is like a phantom car with Chevy and I could never seem to find one at a dealer to look at. When my SO found a Mercedes B-class(another phantom car!) at the local dealer we found out it's an all Tesla (Mercedes is a partner of Tesla)running gear all electric that Benz has been making for several years. I'd never heard of it. When we go to look at a used one that was on the new car showroom floor because it was a 2013 and had 3,500mi and looked brand new......we have to walk through 3new Volts on the lot! The salesman mostly poopoo's the B as we go in to see it, how it can "only" go 80mi on a charge. :Flame: 

We end up leasing the Volt. It did bump up our elec bill, from $80 to $160, this is because the puny 110v charger that comes with it took 12-14hrs to charge so it had to kickin during peak. But she went 1,200mi on the tank of gas from the dealer(8gal tank!) and if she had no had to do a weekly trip of 110mi round trip we would have gone who knows how far without buying gas. Her daily commute to work is like 35mi so if all we did was local we'd very seldom ever buy gas. On long trips where we start out with a full charge it gets 46-48mpg. You can barely feel when the engine kicks in. I knew I could drastically drop the elec bill by going to a 220v charge station which would charge the car in 4hrs so could do it all off peak hrs. Home Depot sells them now for $300. 

This led us to a solar co that the special was an included charge station. She went for it because the tax rebate is going away in Dec. The bonus was getting our horrible time bomb of a service panel replaced for the same price in the deal. We only got like 2wks of having the 3.5kv PV+ charge station on the first bill, but it was back down to $80 and should be a min charge of $10 next mo.

While I like the idea of DIY there is the practical side of I'd rather support what I'm able to when it's worthwhile and help the economy of scale kick in. Not a hyjack, just a wander  :Smile:

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Paul Jones (Sep 8, 2016),

PJs (Sep 8, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 8, 2016)

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## Paul Jones

We will be taking the solar plunge this year. We live on 1.5 acres where 0.5 acres is flat and then the backyard remaining 1 acre slopes 40 degrees down into a box canyon. It has the perfect southern exposure and my next door neighbor who has 4 acres with 0.5 flat put an 84 panel solar installation on their upper slope. We didn't even notice it for a week until I was looking over the edge of our property and I spotted his solar array. The neighbor said the overall installation was far less expensive than a roof installation because he can use much lower efficiency solar panels (but more of these) because he had no size restrictions as compared to trying to cram as many solar panels on the roof. 

The photo on the left shows the neighbor's solar array as seen from the slope on our property. My chipper is in the foreground and I had just finished removing some re-growth of vegetation that if allowed to grow large will eventually die and become tumble weeds. Great material for wildfires as you can see in the 2008 photo on the right. There were three or four homes up the far ridge line in the background that totally burned down to nothing but white ash and a brick fireplaces due to the 40 to 50 MPH sustained winds. The city lost about 140 homes and many others damaged including our house. Also for the next wildfire (just a matter of when) I am putting all the patio furniture into the pool. The falling burning embers put holes in all the seat covers and webbing.

 



We have a neighbor that flies drones and takes videos of our surrounding neighborhoods. I started watching some of his YouTube videos and realized that a lot of my neighbors already had solar installations on their slopes. You just can't see them in the box canyons (we are at 750 elevation above sea level but the neighbors farther up the hill in the other direction are at 1,400' and very secluded in the box canyons). I do a LOT of brush clearing all the time and will have to make sure we have good brush clearance for the solar array (I have three chain saws and a 10HP chipper that consumes 3" dia. branches like butter). We had an awful wildfire in November 2008 that burned down many of the neighbors' homes including the next door neighbor on the other side. Just about everything has been rebuilt, far more fireproof and of course twice as large as to what was there before (hence the need for solar).

I love to hear more about your alternative energy adventures. By the way, we have plenty of on-shore breezes for wind generation but not sure about the city code restrictions.

We finally installed a 14.6 kW solar panel array on our lower slope of the property on 12-20-16 and avoided installing this on the roof. The ground installation allowed the optimum position and size of the array (plus it could be expanded if required).

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C-Bag (Sep 8, 2016),

PJs (Sep 9, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 8, 2016)

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## Frank S

Paul I would hope that you are making rows of Hugelkulturs out of those chips 

I would steer away from a roof mounted system at all costs if possible, unless the house was specifically constructed for solar PV
now solar heating or water heating can be another story as well My main problems with roof mounted systems are three fold #1 the additional weight #2 the added possibility for fire, #3 accessibility for servicing. No matter which type of Solar energy harvesting a person is contemplating there will always be a need to service the system. Even it is nothing more than a periodical washing

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Paul Jones (Sep 8, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 11, 2016)

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## Paul Jones

Frank S,

I like the Hugelkulturs idea except for the problem with wildfires. I usually cut a small flat plaform back into the slope for the chipper to safely sit and then leave it there for a couple months while chipping brush and limbs before relocating another forty feet away for the next round of chipping. This creates a 15'x15' mounds of chips that I spread to about 6" thick. Nothing grows there because the decomposing chips seem to rob the soil of nitrogen. The big problem I had with the wildfire was the darn chip piles eventually caught on fire like a duff fire despite being water soaked with the hoses. The chip piles smoldered for several days and finally stopped burning. I didn't know how bad this had gotten until I checked the soles of my boots and found I burned the soles.

Agree about not putting anymore weight on the roof than necessary. Our roof structure was designed for the weight of a slate roof but we decided to put light weight concrete tiles on the roof. It is a 10,000 SF complex roof with plywood under double and triple layers of felt and very waterproof for the two or three times a year when we get 6" of rain. Even though the we use light weight concrete tiles, the totally weight of tiles, felt, copper flashing and plywood amounts to 44 tons. I think about this a lot when it is windy so I would be worrying even more if we had solar panels and the typical 50 MPH Santa Anna winds.

Thank you for your comments, Paul

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PJs (Sep 9, 2016)

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## Frank S

Paul the hugelkulturs obviously function better in a wetter environment such as that found in the Pacific Northwest.
However one way to cause them to kick-start into decay in more arid locations is to trench down a couple feet in long trenches adding a new trench when needed about 5 to 6 feet from the previous. Fill the trench to within 5 or 6 inches of the surface with a mixture of as much very green foliage as possible half and half has worked for several I had helped in the middle east to cause the nearly barren hard pan then mound the removed soil over the trench. This helps to prevent the moisture from evaporating.
If at all possible the area should receive some irrigation from time to time and serves more as a trench compost system than strictly a hugelkultur but it also offers some protection against wildfire

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Paul Jones (Sep 9, 2016),

PJs (Sep 9, 2016)

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## Paul Jones

Frank S,
Excellent advice from your experience in the Middle East and will work well in the Mediterranean-like climate we have in the parts of Southern California. We also need more organically enriched soils. I used to live in the Pacific Northwest on Bainbridge Island, across from Seattle, and water and enriching the soils was not a problem. The azaleas, rhododendrons and hydrangeas grew beautifully with minimal care except for occasional fertilizing and deadheading. The clay-like non-acidic soils in Southern California has to be organically enriched to grow these plants well (the plants grow well until their roots extend beyond enriched root ball). The hugelkulturs could be that source of enriched soils and other than the initial trenching, should almost take care of themselves with a little extra water and harder to burn.

Thank you for the ideas, Paul

Okay, now where where we on the alternative energy track before I got everyone distracted?

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PJs (Sep 9, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 10, 2016)

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## Frank S

Paul, the term alt energy can mean many things. Many mistakenly tend to think it simply means producing electricity by means other than the accepted norm But just what is the accepted norm in today's world.
To me energy means many things and has many forms. 
The means of creating activity the physical or mental strength that allows you to do things to start with.
Then which form of energy should we talk about? Kinetic, chemical, potential,mechanical, light, heat, magnetic, atomic, to name a few. then what about so called renewable or non renewable. 
The only truly non renewable form of energy is that which has been wasted.
I am perfectly willing to make an attempt at a coherent conversation in any direction dealing with what some may call alt energy so far as my limited knowledge and experiences allow as long as over unity does not enter into the equation 
Most of the builders here on HMT knowingly or unknowingly practice the law of conservation of energy by building their own tools,
These tools such as the current tool of the week the http://www.homemadetools.net/forum/d...function-50776 
Is in my estimation a good example of the law of conservation of energy + the use of intellectual energy 
the use of intellectual energy is self explanatory but the conservation of energy is not as apparent in the normal use of the term, because the definition is tied to the first law of thermal dynamics,a law governing the relations between states of energy in a closed system

However when in use it saves the user time and effort which to me at least is conserving energy. The device was constructed to accommodate existing components which has conserved the amount of energy which would have been required to manufacture them, thus energy is disappearing in one form and reappearing in another 
OK some may feel that I posses a warped opinion of the forms and terms communally used when it comes to energy maybe I have but they are my opinions 
Now I believe this thread was about shop truths phrases and outright lies. Possibly it should have included experiences in the topic as well since many of us have shared several of our own real life experiences.
Maybe it is time for us to explore some of those outright lies. LOL. 


Full Definition of energy
plural energies
1
a : dynamic quality <narrative energy>
b : the capacity of acting or being active <intellectual energy>
c : a usually positive spiritual force <the energy flowing through all people>
2
: vigorous exertion of power : effort <investing time and energy>
3
: a fundamental entity of nature that is transferred between parts of a system in the production of physical change within the system and usually regarded as the capacity for doing work
4
: usable power (as heat or electricity); also : the resources for producing such power

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Paul Jones (Sep 10, 2016),

PJs (Sep 10, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 10, 2016)

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## C-Bag

Very interesting tie in Frank S. Because one of the "truths" always being thrown around any shop is "time is $$" and in my experience the managers don't think anything is getting done unless those on the floor are rushing around expending energy like chickens w/their heads cut off. The few masters I got to work around were the epitome of economy of motion and by extension, energy. They never rushed, they never did it over. They wouldn't start until they had a clear plan of what they were going to do. And they were always done before the whirling dervishes. Especially when you started tracking their comebacks. Their time truly was directly converted to work/$$. 

I also enjoy seeing where time, $$ and energy is saved here on HMT using what is at hand or might be a tossed by others, converted into something useful. The hugelkultures are a good example. Instead of being carted off and dumped it's used directly. 

The first time I ever heard of such a thing is in Paul Stametts book Mycelium Running. For those who don't know him he's the mushroom King. He describes where he was living in WA was a very old homestead like most of the places around him. And like most around him they had an old barrel in the ground for a septic tank with a very poor leech field. Everything sloped and went over a cliff into the bay. He has farm animals too, so everything was going over the side. There was a long depression that everything kind of ran to so he put all his wood chips in layers with cardboard layers to keep them damp in the building a dam so all the run off had to go through. He also told the phone and power co they could dump their wood chips from trimming in there too. Each layer of cardboard and chips he inoculated with garden giant mushrooms.

They started having probs with the clam beds in the bay having bacteria related to effluent and started going around checking on all the farms runoff. After checking his they found no trace of bacteria. The mycelium filtered the bacteria and ate it producing clean water going into the bay. It typically lasts 10yrs, and you dig it up and it's the best soil you can imagine. Then just repeat the process. 

That book is chock full of amazing things like that. Another was the state transportation yard put out a bid to try to find an alternative to scraping the yard clean of the oil that dripped off the vehicles and send it to a hazardous waste dump. They wanted an onsite remediation process. There were three respondents, Stammets being one. The state prepared 4 piles of oily dirt/gravel. There test piles and one control. They each applied their process. Stammets used wood chips inoculated with oyster mushrooms. He didn't see what the other outfits used. All 4 piles were covered with tarps and they returned 6wks later. When they uncovered the piles the control and the other two piles looked the same, but Stammets pile was covered with oyster mushrooms. The tested the soil and the oil was completely gone. The mushrooms had done what they do, disassembled the long molecuclar chains of the oil. He also makes the rolls you see put in storm drains here as they are inoculated with the same mycelium to filter the oil that come off the roadway during a rain and keep it out of Morro Bay fisheries. I've read where there has been success composting chipped plastic the same way with wood chips, oyster mycelium and chipped plastic.

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Paul Jones (Sep 10, 2016),

Philip Davies (Jun 13, 2021),

PJs (Sep 10, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 11, 2016)

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## PJs

Once again Frank you picked up on 2 words of one of my dissertations (hijacks) and pretty much covered the bases ± a skosh. I've pretty much followed the "Systems" approach since reading Capra's "The Turning Point" back in the mid 80's, but only because I read the Kybalion back when I was 16 and got it...and been an initiate ever since. We do as a whole species like to put names to a local habitation but often miss the multidimensionality of all the Bard brought forward for us to ponder, imho. My intent is usually geared toward that way of communicating and you picked it up and ran with it, here on this great forum of Alt Thinkers/Doers. Plus I get tired sometimes of having to explain it, like writing a resume.

You're absolutely right PV is a small subset of the spectrum of physics and the meaning of the term Alt Energy, but it is nice that now after 40 years California is producing about 15% via PV @ <40% efficiency. Then we have the wind farms with another 8-10% and of course Geothermal even smaller. The reason is that electricity has become like our eyes as one of the senses we most depend on. Next fossil fuels has become like a food we consume to be healthy and not only generate electricity but to fuel our travel, ever shrinking the time we have between destinations...at what efficiency? That is except for airports, if only we could bottle that waste of energy, Oh my! Our grid system is now ~120 years old and still using tech from the turn of the 20th century, but now using 750KV-1MV lines to bring Power to masses, but mainly industry...guess what...it's tired and vulnerable. 

We've got a lot of new names like Green and Carbon Footprint that do impart some multidimensionality and by some goodness do imply efficiency in a systems view. Unfortunately it's also become a marketing ploy steering the masses for better or worse. Hybrids for instance are an excellent start at a systems approach but what is the difference between those and the 100mpg carb/fuel systems that have been sitting on the shelves at GM and others for years...I'll leave that for you to answer, but it's not just a 14:1 air/fuel ratio under load. How easily is a bush supposed a bear...or vice versa.

I've been looking at, researching the old and new/cutting edge of this stuff since the 60's and a turning point of mine came to mind here. Back in college I used to fill the tank on my TR3 and drive out into the Superstition's till I got to 1/2 tank pull over and sit on the edge (sometimes throw out a bag and spend the night) and look at the wonder of them and the native dwellings in the side of the walls and it dawned on me the life these people lived in these efficient dwellings using economy of energy to live their simple lives without Starbucks and Whataburger. It couldn't have been easy yet it was simple and efficient and probably a bit magical, definitely connected & spiritual. It comes down to me this idea of this (non) economy of scale we hold so dearly to after being primarily a nomad bunch for a 100k years prior to the masses collecting, larger and larger till we have 15-20M people living in 30 square miles all over the planet. It's now a matter of logistics & Duckets to feed, clothe, shelter, and power that many in that small of place...the roads must roll...

More to the point here and to minimize my hijack, what if we started considering combining technologies, say to capturing heat loss for other purposes or took a look at using some of the other forms of energy from the spectrum and nature, exothermic/chemical (like the hugelkulturs or mushrooms), etc. What if we used them together in a larger system to manage Single Family Residences needs for food/water, shelter, heat, electricity...basic needs+, so we could use our new i-Toys (also hopefully Alt designed, maybe even from recycled materials) thereby relieving the OA system to individual sensibilities/responsibilities (semi-scary thought)? My thought are Entropy is, why not use that. The tech is here now to make the whole exterior of your house produce electricity, maybe not efficiently but if we might take a look at thinking out of the box and changing the Paradigm with a longer more dynamic view of entropy, resources, wherewithal, and conscious broad spectrum thinking "we might just find we get what we need".

Whelp you guys wound the watch of my wit and it ticked at least a second or two. In consideration that we really haven't told any outright lies, perhaps food for thought and maybe the shop truth of it is, it's all lies and a beautiful tall tale. 

Thanks for being here sharing the tale. ~PJ

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C-Bag (Sep 10, 2016),

Paul Jones (Sep 10, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 11, 2016)

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## Frank S

Yep the old time is $$ LIE. Ever wonder why there is never enough time to do something right the first time but always plenty of money to do it over when that thing catastrophically fails?
This reminds me of a 20 meter 10 tone bridge crane beam I designed and subsequently had built in our factory in Kuwait.for a new client of ours. Who just happened to be one of those dollar cost averaging spread sheet time chart graph driven BEAN counter types. According to his so called chart we should start our manufacture on a certain date in order for the expected delivery and install to be on yet another pin point on his graph. There for he felt that his prepayment or deposit if you will should not be before the date he had on his chart. 
Absolutely no conception of the probability that the special materials IE type of steel required to build this crane might not be a local purchase, which could require as much as 3 months to arrive by ship. When my salesman a young mechanical engineer tried to explain to him the reason that his cash deposit along with a LC for the full cost would have to be placed in our bank at the onset of his project and not 3 months down the line according to the pinpoint on his chart indicated. He hit the proverbial roof by passing the ceiling altogether.
My engineers tell me that you don't need to use any special steel for one of these. I personally have seen many beams similar to this made out of common locally available steel Just build it our of the regular stuff.
Sir I really don't advise you to insist on our company build something that my SIR has spent time designing out of inferior materials. in the first place he won't allow it. In the second place he is a voting member of the Kuwait Society of Engineers I shouldn't have to say more.
Very well your company will get your money on your time schedule But I still don't see why he won't use regular steel.
Quite simply because in his estimation your structure will not safely support the additional weight the bridge crane would weigh and still be capable of hoisting 10,000 KG then transporting the load the length of your building. He believes in do it once but do it right never mind the time or cost, the only thing that anyone will remember in years to come is the quality and functionality. 
=-=-=-=-=-
Now then in the previous discourse there are many complete truths a few half truths, a phrase or two and at least one possibly more outright lies. I used to have a couple of colleagues who would attempt to create a 100% believable real life scenario when addressing a group of peers and subordinates. I find that these little diversions from reality often stimulate conversations among persons who actually know each other very well. Where they can create of destroy a line of thought at will. However in an atmosphere where the conversations are carried on by individuals who either don't know one another or have a limited history with each other can and will create a false impression of each other.
the outright lie was the word VOTING the 2nd outright lie was the reluctance to pay the deposit.
the half truths were the conversation between the salesman and the client about the use of regular steel the structural integrity of the building being built,
=-=-=-=-
Lets jump to constructing a building which would actually produce its own electrical, heat or cooling, air and water purification and throw in produce edible food stuffs. Start off with thinking a massive amount thermal mass toss, in bio-electromagnetism bio-luminescence, integrate vertical and horizontal hydro and aquaponics solar PV solar air and water heating with a twin bore hole geothermal well. When all of these are added together in a structure most likely made primarily out of COB you could achieve a near 100% self sustaining habitat

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C-Bag (Sep 12, 2016),

Paul Jones (Sep 12, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 11, 2016)

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## Toolmaker51

I am stunned. 

Imagine this.
Some where, some how, some day, some one finds this entire thread and a little light pops on.
"Who are these guys? Where are they now?"
"They were right!"

By then, it will either be too late or have finally been set right.
Never the less, the Al Gore Honorary Foundation will take credit.



And the crystal ball we've created worked again. I've been eliminated in precisely the same methodical (and manipulated) analysis of dollars & ROI Frank diagrammed above. Cost of Quality should be less than 2% of sales. When asked what percentage was acceptable for your sales staff that can't keep a shop busy...classic blank stare. 

Priceless! 

Press Room Supervisor and Operations Manager physically _helped_ me load up; insisted I take their personal cell numbers, offered exemplary references, sincere Thank Yous and firm handshakes all round.

Meanwhile quality Manager (yes, intentional use of lower case and caps, aka dufus 2) stood by. His lame attempt to assist received a stern refusal and _leave MY s_ _t alone_. He did take notes on how to eradicate shadow of former Inspector...Extending his hand for the shake, I 'slicked back' my hair [where it used to be anyway] channeling W. Zevon, saying "Even a Dog can Shake Hands" (dufus 2 unaware of quote punctuation marks).

Priceless! Warren Buffett grade.

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PJs (Sep 11, 2016)

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## PJs

> I am stunned. 
> 
> Imagine this.
> Some where, some how, some day, some one finds this entire thread and a little light pops on.
> "Who are these guys? Where are they now?"
> "They were right!"
> 
> By then, it will either be too late or have finally been set right.
> Never the less, the Al Gore Honorary Foundation will take credit.
> ...



 :ROFL:  Al Gore bronze metal...think I saw that once. It was a relief that looked something like this.

Attachment 13694

Amen to your pertinent question about the sales staff! The answer may have been...But they itemized their golf expenses wooing clients which fits the bean counter criteria...question 2 is did they get the sale or just a tan and some drinks? [File: Shop Truths]

Nice touch with the slick back and Zevon...Priceless!  :Beer: 

C-Bag touched on all this with Edwards Deming (circular reference #24) regarding statistics to include:

1. Appreciating a system (wow what a thought, eh?)
2. Understanding variation
3. Psychology (oh no)
4. Epistemology (most important)

Unfortunately it has all been corrupted since with variations and more psychobabble than there are sticks to shake at it and reduced to number stacking to fit the criteria which is an [Outright Lie] in my book...becoming a CUBAR (Corrupted....). Where is Democritus now? He was Right!...but dead now 2300 years...{circular file, one of my hero's}

Frank; Cob is great stuff but I'm partial to Post and Beam. Luckily they can be mixed, and with old and new tech. Most people aren't aware that you can also sink 2 rods 30' into the ground to produce E...not much but it's free with scraps. Also not mentioned here is the advances in thermal mass storage systems...pretty cool new stuff.

C-Bag; Apologies for only giving you an honorable mention on the mycelium thing but found a couple of years ago now, the Dairy guys are using that and methane recovery systems around here...very impressive and pretty much DIY.

Paul; This is a cul-de-sac and all a circular reference (unconditional loop).  :Wink:  Still diving on the 3D seismic reflection seismology stuff and do like the Tech of it...also solved the Dot Products mystery, Doh! A more precise term perhaps than Scalar products that I learned, forgot and barely used over the years. Also enthused about longitudinal wave theory.

Not sure whether to  :Popcorn:  or do some diving but it's all a big candle to me...Truth, Tale, or Outright Lie? Probably should get something done. Happy Sunday!

~PJ

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C-Bag (Sep 12, 2016),

Paul Jones (Sep 11, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 11, 2016)

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## PJs

> I am stunned. 
> 
> Imagine this.
> Some where, some how, some day, some one finds this entire thread and a little light pops on.
> "Who are these guys? Where are they now?"
> "They were right!"
> 
> By then, it will either be too late or have finally been set right.
> Never the less, the Al Gore Honorary Foundation will take credit.
> ...



 :ROFL:  Al Gore bronze metal...think I saw that once. It was a relief that looked something like this.



Amen to your pertinent question about the sales staff! The answer may have been...But they itemized their golf expenses wooing clients which fits the bean counter criteria...question 2 is did they get the sale or just a tan and some drinks? [File: Shop Truths]

Nice touch with the slick back and Zevon...Priceless!  :Beer: 

C-Bag touched on all this with Edwards Deming (circular reference #24) regarding statistics to include:

1. Appreciating a system (wow what a thought, eh?)
2. Understanding variation
3. Psychology (oh no)
4. Epistemology (most important)

Unfortunately it has all been corrupted since with variations and more psychobabble than there are sticks to shake at it and reduced to number stacking to fit the criteria which is an [Outright Lie] in my book...becoming a CUBAR (Corrupted....). Where is Democritus now? He was Right!...but dead now 2300 years...{circular file, one of my hero's}

Frank; Cob is great stuff but I'm partial to Post and Beam. Luckily they can be mixed, and with old and new tech. Most people aren't aware that you can also sink 2 rods 30' into the ground to produce E...not much but it's free with scraps. Also not mentioned here is the advances in thermal mass storage systems...pretty cool new stuff.

C-Bag; Apologies for only giving you an honorable mention on the mycelium thing but found a couple of years ago now, the Dairy guys are using that and methane recovery systems around here...very impressive and pretty much DIY.

Paul; This is a cul-de-sac and all a circular reference (unconditional loop).  :Wink:  Still diving on the 3D seismic reflection seismology stuff and do like the Tech of it...also solved the Dot Products mystery, Doh! A more precise term perhaps than Scalar products that I learned, forgot and barely used over the years. Also enthused about longitudinal wave theory.

Not sure whether to  :Popcorn:  or do some diving but it's all a big candle to me...Truth, Tale, or Outright Lie? Probably should get something done. Happy Sunday!

~PJ

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C-Bag (Sep 12, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 11, 2016)

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## Toolmaker51

> Al Gore bronze metal...think I saw that once. It was a relief that looked something like this.
> 
>  ~PJ



He's perfectly safe. A projectile would only have hit him in the head. 
Then we'd be have been safer too! 
Later distinctive as "The candidate who couldn't win his own state, TN". 
Or his push on energy conservation from his not so humble domicile.

Politicians; an endless sort of entertainment, but like prescription medicine with some adverse side effects...

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C-Bag (Sep 12, 2016),

PJs (Sep 11, 2016)

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## PJs

Roger that TM! I love the TV ads for pharma...patiently waiting for the shoe to drop so I can run around the room thinking Yeah I need that and an M16 pointed at my head...all the while singing "Lawyers, guns and money"...another tribute to WZ.

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C-Bag (Sep 12, 2016),

Paul Jones (Sep 12, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 11, 2016)

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## Toolmaker51

Excerpt, again. Not dilution, highlighting that 



> ...all been corrupted since with variations and *more psychobabble* *than* there are *sticks to shake at it* ~*PJs*



Forget the Bill of Rights, we're short on sticks!
Shticks however, got them by the pound.

"Lawyers, guns and money" fits, I'm thinking "Mr. Bad Example", still ol' WZ.

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C-Bag (Sep 12, 2016),

PJs (Sep 11, 2016)

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## Paul Jones

PJs, yes in today's world there are very good examples of the "The Circumlocution Office" as depicted in Charles Dickens's Little Dorrit.

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C-Bag (Sep 12, 2016),

PJs (Sep 11, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 12, 2016)

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## Toolmaker51

Frank S, in #75 stated "Now I believe this thread was about shop truths phrases and outright lies. Possibly it should have included experiences in the topic as well since many of us have shared several of our own real life experiences."

I guarantee, the current 5(?) participants, sitting in break room, or clustered around a favorite machine, the very same topical progression would occur. We accept each others as peers, with all kinds of related perceptions but _wildly_ varied backgrounds.
As the FNG when it started, never imagined such vertical and horizontal proliferation. The amazing part, since 04-23-2016 85 Replies: (&) *1,530* Views: Who is getting scared off? That's all Us?

Dear Al Gore; 
Thrilled you survived close range sniper. He'll never realize you had him in your sights. Thank you for the internet. 
We've harnessed perpetual creative verbal energy. What have you done lately?

Sincerely;
Your Fiends and Pot-Shotters
The Epicyclic Elliptic Think & Do Continuum. (EETaDTC)

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## Frank S

Toolmaker 51 XXIII+ Cbag X V IV +PJs XVIII +Frank S XIV + Paul Jones X + Toolmaker Rob I. Yep that's 85 posts in 9 pages 
If nothing else this group is prolific in our ongoing adventure.

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Paul Jones (Sep 12, 2016),

PJs (Sep 12, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 12, 2016)

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## Frank S

Well today the wife and I filled 2 4 ft by 4ft by 10 ft long tubs with an assortment of just about any and everything to haul to out new digs. When filled my aging 8000 lb forklift struggled to lift them and place them on the Step deck trailer (that I rebuilt last year). Yesterday we had loaded a pickup and 3 other small truck beds Still having about 12 ft of lower deck area I grabbed several side kit uprights and 2 8 by 5 ft sheets of used plate steel to make a side kit on the off side then we stacked not less then 20 used truck brake drums against that side then loaded several parts bin frames some jack stands some truck rims my heavy duty work horses 3 or 4 truck & RV fifth wheels a 6 ft hydraulic flail mower and more small but heavy things too numerous to list then top all of this off with a 18 inch high stack of roof and steel siding material 3 ft wide by 15 ft lengths, Tomorrow morning before my partners truck gets out of the shop (this is one time when we felt it was cheaper for us to have the front springs and the alignment done than me doing it due to lack of time and current state of facilities) I plan on possibly adding about 2000 ft of 1.94 diameter purling tubing 
Then finish loading my little Scrap built trailer.
Its a good thing my backhoe is already at the new digs to unload this stuff with

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C-Bag (Sep 15, 2016),

Paul Jones (Sep 15, 2016),

PJs (Sep 15, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 15, 2016)

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## Frank S

latest calculations show that we have not less than 10 or possibly 12 more full loads for the step deck and the 50 ft flatbeds and at least that many more to be hauled on ither my little 10 ft trailer or the 20 footer. then there is the machine-shop trailer the parts and bolt storage trailer and the 30 box trailer with my completely dissembled to the last bolt 49 Chevy pickup and other things. Its going to be an adventure to get everything off property by the 10th of Oct.

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C-Bag (Sep 15, 2016),

Paul Jones (Sep 15, 2016),

PJs (Sep 15, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 15, 2016)

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## Paul Jones

Is this the new digs that used to have the two colony's of A/Bees and where you used the special concoction that included Dr. Pepper to drive them out?

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Toolmaker51 (Sep 15, 2016)

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## PJs

Congrats on getting going into the new diggs Frank, but man that is a lot of Stuff. Here I thought moving my Dads place the last time was a task. Took a day to move the house and a week+ to move the shop and Stuff. Good Luck with the load and do be careful. ~PJ

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C-Bag (Sep 15, 2016),

Paul Jones (Sep 16, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 15, 2016)

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## C-Bag

WOW! It's hard to get even my pack rat brain around the sheer tonnage you are talking about Frank! I'm saving this and showing it to the SO, she think I have a lot of STUFF! I am glad I hung on to the raw material that 'bout killed the moving truck because there are no good places to get cheap material here.

My brother is trying to move from CA to PA, all in one shot. And he is the king of junk. Even he is getting to where he's having to edit to the bare bones. One that went away already was a huge mill he gave away for $1000.

Good luck and safe journey.

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Paul Jones (Sep 16, 2016),

PJs (Sep 17, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 15, 2016)

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## Frank S

Paul Jones, Yes, I haven't seen a single Bee in months.
-=-=-=-
PJs thanks and yes it is a lot of stuff but I have always been the king of accumulation .One of my friends once said that if I were to somehow wake up one morning on the moon with little more than my space suit and a week's worth of air when the time came for my extraction it would require the cargo hold of 2 space shuttles to haul everything I had accumulated back to Earth.
-=-=-=-
C-bag in the past 8 months I have carted over 30 tons of scrap that in my mind actually wasn't, across the scales. I could visualize a new tool or piece of equipment made from every hunk of metal hucked into the bin. OH, the inhumanity! But as painful as it is sometimes it is better to turn things into cash than to think about them. My wife often says that I can find a use for a bent rusty nail, probably because she has seen me pick one up and do just that. But I come by it honestly. My Grand father had a saying ( Keep it for 7 years then if it hadn't been used, keep for another 7 because the day after you get rid of it you will need it)

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Paul Jones (Sep 16, 2016),

Philip Davies (Jun 13, 2021),

PJs (Sep 17, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 16, 2016)

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## Frank S

Well we arrived out here this afternoon while mother nature was dumping barrels of water on our heads. instead of pulling straight in under the carport so we could get out of the truck in the dry I opted to back the little trailer under it instead since I have 20 sheets of roof decking on it that is not very well wrapped to protect it from such an onslaught. Driving down the road at 60 MPH most of the water would be blown off but I figured just sitting overnight wouldn't do it any good so we got soaked instead. Heck we both probably needed a shower anyway LOL.
the truck won't arrive until after midnight because Bob had to visit his dad in the hospital first. Just as well we couldn't have unloaded it this evening anyway.
As much as I really need to be back in Ft. Worth to build up another load I want to get the roof torn off the mud room and replaced with sheet metal. the rest of the house has a steel roof but the 12 by 20 addition on the back of the house has a stupidly flat roof with asphalt shingles (WHAT WERE THEY THINKING) anyway I have to create some amount of slope and repair it Hope to get started on it Saturday morning since it is supposed to dump a few buckets full or rain tomorrow afternoon again.
I also want to jerk the wood stove out of the living room and temporarily seal up the chimney hole until I can replace the rusted out triple pipe and sandblast then paint the old stove with KBS high temp paint. So we are probably looking at Wednesday night before returning to FT Worth
Dang why couldn't my kids have given me half a dozen grand sons who would be willing to learn some things LOL

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Paul Jones (Sep 16, 2016),

PJs (Sep 17, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 16, 2016)

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## Toolmaker51

Scrap? Junk? Fall-off! Remnant! Depends on who paid for them; who's willing to get them moved.

It's scrap when you can't hold it; alpha-list follows......many appropriate for some materials, others use few. Just consider the end result needed. Adhesive, Band , Bolt, Cerro, Chuck, Clamp, Collet, Dowel, Fuse, Heat-Sink, Hemostat, Magnet, Nail, Pin, Pliers, Potting, Rivet, Screw, Solder, Strap, Tack, Vacuum, Vise, Weld.......You may need to hide it until a method is devised.


Frank S; if not smack-dab middle of new employment I'd be there....I get what you are doing 100%. My move was fair sized; 1 full flatbed, 1 lowboy full, 1/2 one more flatbed, 20' container full, two 16' foot vans full, 1 car trailer full, and a little over half a commercial moving van. As pointed out before, avatar is Mr. Green swung by 80' crane......then flew back for little Toyota pickup not full; to round up ebay purchases on the way. Left empty arrived full.

Not moving again.

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Paul Jones (Sep 16, 2016),

PJs (Sep 17, 2016)

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## C-Bag

Yup, I totally agree. I got used to just going out to my FIL( father in law) shop after he retired and just find whatever I needed. That was one of the last to get liquidated after my inlaws departed this world. And it was FULL of cool stuff that most of my posted projects were made with. To the end of my days I'll see those things I let go always with a grimace.

I love Frank S's keep it another 7 years after the 7 you've not used it because the nano second after it really goes away, here comes the perfect project for it. More than one place I worked I turned their bone yard into equipment. So I can feel that absolute division of needing to toss it, and already missing it. Almost every post of Frank's I see the material used in the project and the stuff surrounding it and am jealous. I loved having the material at hand. A major part of my creative process is derailed by having to go elsewhere to find material. That's why I love modding HFT's, they are uasually cheap and I don't feel the remorse of chopping it up and doing as I please as there is no connection of like wrecking a historic piece. 

So you landed another job TM51 or did I misunderstand?

I am totally with you guys about hating the idea of moving. My first SO moved us 23 times in the 30yrs together. And 15yrs of that I didn't even have a garage to work out of  :Frown:  The idea of moving is daunting, and I have nowhere near as much as you Frank and TM51.

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Paul Jones (Sep 16, 2016),

PJs (Sep 17, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 16, 2016)

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## Toolmaker51

C-Bag;
Nope not been 'caught' by worthy new boss yet. Think I forgot typing 'search' as in '.....middle of'. All the same sometimes. Nice leads, a gamut of places, and two I tried very seriously 4 years back. Guess they picked the wrong guy after all.
Could've told em' that.
LoL

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## Toolmaker51

C-Bag;
Nope not been 'caught' by worthy new boss yet. Think I forgot typing 'search' as in '.....middle of'. All the same sometimes. Nice leads, a gamut of places, and two I tried very seriously 4 years back. Guess they picked the wrong guy after all.
Could've told em' that.
LoL

a twofer???

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## Frank S

Guys part of what keeps my life interesting is my inherent inability to jusr say NO then walk away.
For instance a customer of mine that I have been doing work for since time immemorial (well over 37 years at least), asked me about a year ago to build an extension for the bed on his dump-truck see http://www.homemadetools.net/forum/d...xtension-39328
Instead of telling him that doing such a thing would or could cause potential problems like being harrassed by the DOT every-time they decided it would be fun to collect revenge for the State or fed guberments I told him sure no problem I'll just have to design it so as to fall in the spectrum of barely legal, plus you will have to watch your driver's daily maintenance routine otherwise you are going to be harassed to no end. Also you may have issues when you dump if your driver is not careful.
=-=-=-=
Well I'm currently doing a lot of tear-down demolition work which generates a lot of fluff I figure the savings in dump fees should offset the cost of it, as far as the other things I know that you will design something that will never be an issue with the DOT after the initial round of inspections. Besides I can always simply take it off and return to a regular bed.
=-=-= 
Well after it was built and his driver got used to it, He wouldn't dream of removing it He runs on a permanent oversize / overweight registration anyway so #1 problem never enters into play.
Both he and his brother are of the opinion that if something isn't Frank built or modified it is not worth owning.
He is the guy who more or less told me that the Ford 750 backhoe is mine forever. he has also given me a Schramm tractor compressor that I need to pick up at his place. The backhoe boom and Pneumatic hammer are long gone but I've used the old rig in the past to power 2 sand blast units at the same time.
Anothedr thing that keeps my life interesting is the auctions I frequent.I may go to 1 nearly flat broke then buy a few lots for scrap . Load them and haul to te recycle yard then go back and pay for the stuff that I wanted in the first place , this is also a reason why it is me so many trips back and forth to get everything loaded and moved.

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Paul Jones (Sep 19, 2016),

PJs (Sep 17, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 19, 2016)

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## Frank S

TM 51 the best job you will ever have will be the one that comes looking for you not the other way round.
Keep the skills sharp and the work ethics irreproachable and they will hunt you down like bounty hunters.
Then it is just a matter of which one has the biggest and fastest gun that you sign with. And never give up intellectual property rights to any of them. make them pay to lease those.

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Paul Jones (Sep 19, 2016),

PJs (Sep 17, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 19, 2016)

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## Toolmaker51

"...one has the biggest and fastest gun that you sign with. And never give up intellectual property rights to any of them. make them pay to lease those." Frank S.

Yes Sir. Don't recall being hunted down before the internet. Did some work, by referral, making projects for folks that I couldn't discern the connection. When you have a lathe.....apparently it gets around. 
Yes, intel property won't be given away anymore; have to figure out the pitch BEFORE all the non-compete agreements these days.
Leads internet-wise are one of two flavors; hot or cold. I think due to 'keyword search programs'. A frequent email list pulled 'tools' and 'NSF' [national sanitation foundation] into Line Chef in local supermarket's buffet operation.
You can imagine my response to posting site. Distilled "machinists like Tool Makers make tooling using machine TOOLS" and one company I did "mold work for catering supplies adherent to NSF standards". The brand name, certain to be in the buffet area, was never mentioned. Guess that would have prompted offer for regional supervisor!

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PJs (Sep 18, 2016)

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## C-Bag

> C-Bag;
> Nope not been 'caught' by worthy new boss yet. Think I forgot typing 'search' as in '.....middle of'. All the same sometimes. Nice leads, a gamut of places, and two I tried very seriously 4 years back. Guess they picked the wrong guy after all.
> Could've told em' that.
> LoL
> 
> a twofer???



Hang in there buddy. I'm rooting for ya.

At my age and situation, work, finding a job, illness, moving etc are vicarious situations for me and anybody in the pack going through it makes me project myself into it. Funny, when I was young I never stayed anywhere for more than two years because they always made me mad. But it would really suck to have to find a wage slave gig. Especially after being on my own for over 10yrs.

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Paul Jones (Sep 19, 2016),

PJs (Sep 18, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 19, 2016)

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## Frank S

"Did some work, by referral, making projects for folks that I couldn't discern the connection. When you have a lathe.....apparently it gets around." 
Yep had that problem since if got my first lathe at the tender age of 15 it was a little Southbend 9" with only 36" between the centers. we set it up in a corner of the Blacksmith shop. Then I had to literally teach myself how to use it when I wasn't busy in my regular work. Neither Clarence the Blacksmith nor his son William the welder had ever used one. It wasn't long before Clarence my boss was taking in work that required some machining. To be sure I ruined a lot of HSS cutters and more than my share of stock in my learning curve when trying to teach myself how to single point thread or cut tapers but learn I did, and I most likely still do a lot of things wrong by Machinist standards but my methods have worked for me for over 45 years, I guess it would be hard for me to relearn procedures to do things according to Hoyle now.
I traded the lathe to William for an old Hobart gas drive welder when I figured it was time for me to break out on my own just before I went into the Army

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Paul Jones (Sep 19, 2016),

PJs (Sep 18, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 19, 2016)

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## C-Bag

Frank, if I may, on orbit #8 of the HMT CdS(cul de sac) you mention a building that a customer wanted built with inferior material, did it get built? And along about that time cleaning/servicing solar panels was mentioned. 

I didn't realize it would be such a cluster of disinformation but our solar co. Only recommends spaying them with a hose, from the ground for our roof system and if more than that is needed hire a professional cleaner. And no cleaner or especially brush should be used. There is a plethora of clowns who can't believe you would ever need to clean a PV and meanwhile a study was done of whether the cost of cleaning the panels is cost effective compared to the loss of output in a solar farm. Bottom line it cleaning won. 

We live in basically a desert and have a constant breeze that carries dust from the sand dunes. Add to that a heavy morning dew that obviously contains salt from the sea about 3mi. away as the crow flies. And we had a forest fire that dropped all kinds of ash. So in less that 2mo. those panels were visibly filthy. I did a little test noting the output of the 5 panel array on one side of the garage and then hosed them down from the ground. Basically the output almost doubled and they were nowhere clean as they as they were originally.

I know you are a ground based advocate, but what do you use to clean PV's with?

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Paul Jones (Sep 27, 2016),

PJs (Sep 27, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 26, 2016)

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## Frank S

the building was finally built with several changes to the structure 
Just like you my array gets quite dirty at times. DEW with dust if left to its own will eventually build up to the point where very little output can be had, even very light rain can leave enough dusty water spots to reduce the production of energy. Heavy drenching rains on the other hand if they last long enough can clean the panels pretty good,
On my array I use a pump sprayer with a mild solution of free rinsing dish soap and water. The important thing I have found is there is no such thing as TOO much water versus not enough soap Never use anything with ammonia or bleach in it. I've never tried it but I am told that these can break down the the sealing bond of the panels to the glass around the edges under the frame.
I have used a micro fiber squeegee on a long pole while keeping a spray of water flowing over it

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C-Bag (Sep 27, 2016),

Paul Jones (Sep 27, 2016),

PJs (Sep 27, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 27, 2016)

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## C-Bag

Thanks Frank. I knew I could count on you to give me a common sense answer. To my mind I'm treating the idea of cleaning as I would my cars. I use dish washing liquid, a nylon bristle brush for the front end to get off the baked on bugs and one of those really soft brushes that telescope and water is fed into the head through the handle for the rest of the car. I tried it on the panels making sure to run the water at all times through the head and not swabbing the panel until it was throughly wet from spraying with the head beforehand. 

The head is so soft if it can't remove bugs and won't scratch paint which is for more fragile than glass so I didn't see how it could scratch the panels if there is plenty of water on the panel before and while swabbing. It did the next step above just hosing it off cleaning wise. But just like with a car it needs a little soap to get the surface truly clean. So next go around I'll do just a little squirt of dish soap for each panel. 

I wish it was possible to treat the panels with Rain-X or this new Miguiars liquid wax I've been using on the cars. Rain-X is some really nasty smelling stuff so I'd be really scared but the Miguiars is really gentle non toxic smelling. And you can use it on everything including glass and it doesn't streak. It's really easy to use and it's been amazing at keeping our cars from getting nasty from the dew and even bugs. You can even put it on while the car is wet and just dry and buff to a shine. I've been done with paste wax for a while but this is as easy as it gets.

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Paul Jones (Sep 27, 2016),

PJs (Sep 27, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 27, 2016)

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## Paul Jones

C-Bag,
I have a house with a LOT of windows and French doors and each window and door is subdivided into 8"x12" panes. Each window is approx. 4'x5' so lots of panes of glass to wash. We now put off cleaning the windows as long as possible becasue it is too time consuming for something that will get dirty again. We did find a technique that worked well in the hot Southern California climate. When washing the exterior sides of the glass, we get up at the first light of dawn so there is no direct sunlight causing rapid evaporation. We do one window at a time before moving to the next window. We jet spray (not pressure wash) each window to remove most of the dust, use a small amount of dish washing liquid and soft nylon bristle brush on a long handle. In the final rinse step, we use the old Mr. Clean, water deionization system for rinsing the glass panes. You have to do this way before there is a full sun and the deionization water leaves no streaks and no residue behind as long as there is just natural evaporation. I think I will consider purchasing a water deionization unit when we finally run out of the Mr. Clean refill filters because I think they have stop production.

This method works well for us. Cleaning the inside side of the windows is far more difficult and way too expense to hire someone to do this.

The deionization water may work for the PV panels.

Paul

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C-Bag (Sep 27, 2016),

Frank S (Sep 27, 2016),

PJs (Sep 27, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 27, 2016)

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## C-Bag

Thanks Paul, cool tip on the deionized water. Never heard of that and I'd always wondered how the pro's get no streaks besides the right squeegee. And thanks for the headsup about not being able to get the Mr.Clean filters anymore. Lots of people scrambling online trying to buy them up. The cheapest deionizer elsewhere I saw was $250. Too rich for my uses right now. But great info.

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Paul Jones (Sep 28, 2016),

PJs (Sep 27, 2016)

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## Frank S

For last year and this one we have had frequent enough heavy rains to pretty much keep our panels reasonably clean. Its those miserable drizzle days that will make the panels dirty.
It seams the smaller the rain drop the higher the dust and contaminant content.

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Paul Jones (Sep 28, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 29, 2016)

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## C-Bag

Yup, agree 100%. I gauge everything by our cars that are outside all the time. It hasn't really rained here for going on 5yrs. And like I said the heavy nightly dew IMHO is the worst. The amount of crust buildup on the hoods won't wash off. 

Instead of using polishing compound I found on the hot rod sites they use this special clay. Feels like play dough, but works great. Just make sure the area is wet and just rub gently. Somehow it removes all that stuff without scratching the paint, but I haven't tried it on glass. Even glass gets pitted by this fallout so that's why I wish I could treat the panels to keep the glass from getting pitted.

What's been interesting is its been crazy hot and clear here the last couple of days. I have been eyeballing the inverter and meter between the PG&E meter. The inverter tells me the output of each 5 panel array. Like I mentioned the array that was directly in the early sun was putting out .475kvh. After spraying it down from the ground it was putting out .890kvh. I waited till the sun was almost down to rinse and swab both arrays. Today we looked on the website monitor app they we signed up for and the last couple of days it was putting out the 3kvh+ it's supposed to put out. But the day I cleaned the array was at the end of the day right before the sun went down and by their graph it was putting out the same. Either I don't know what I'm reading or I have no idea what's going on.

We should be getting our first full month PG&E bill soon and I can't wait to see what it says.

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Paul Jones (Sep 28, 2016),

PJs (Sep 28, 2016)

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## Frank S

After we finally get everything moved I am not sure which way I will go with my system. 
I may create a dedicated panel which will power critical circuits of the house directly, such as fridge / freezer, water well and filtration plus at least some lighting through out the house. With shore or grid power and one of my generators as the backup system 
Or I might set it up so some of the circuits are automatically switched to grid power at night to reduce the charge cycle shock my bank currently goes through.
If I were to eventually increase my PV to say 5 of 6 KW grid tie would most certainly be the way to go while maintaining a dedicated 1 KW pv feeding a separate inverter feeding the aforementioned circuits

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Paul Jones (Sep 28, 2016),

PJs (Sep 29, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 29, 2016)

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## C-Bag

That is a lot of flexibility in your approach. No wind? 

I'm lucky in that I don't need a/c here which contributed 80% of our power bill when living the San Joaquin Valley. I'm also watching what happens to the price of home battery packs when Tesla gets the Giga factory online in NV. Being able to charge the pack at night along with running off solar during the day would be the way to go here as our usage is so low. We live in a old small development so I don't think wind would be feasible because the logistics of such a tall tower with not much land to play with. Even though the wind blows most of the time. 

It is about time the tech that should have been available since the 70's is finally widely available. Meanwhile there is a ton of newer tech that is still languishing.

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Paul Jones (Sep 28, 2016),

PJs (Sep 29, 2016)

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## Frank S

C-bag out where we are or I should say within 45 to 60 miles as the crow fly's there are at least 3 reasonably large wind farms. I haven't set up to do a data log of the average wind but just 12 miles from me there are at least 3 underground weather-stations online they are located in an almost perfect triangle to each other with our place located near the center of 1 of the legs This gives me a pretty good estimation of high low and average wind through out the year. When it comes to wind turbines I have spent years conversing with several folks on another forum. While in kuwait I designed several home brew axial and radial flux generators and built a very small scale model but never flew it.
-=-=-=
I am of several thoughts when it comes to home brew wind or small commercially available turbines the $$ cost averaging simply won't pay out. You can build a nice 1 to 3 KW axial flux or even a nice radial generator with ceramic magnets for little to nothing in cost providing you are a good scrounge and know where to scarf your magnets and copper in the scrap yards. Up grading to NEO. magnets will set your back some bucks but you can build a more durable and flex-able genny. Where the cost comes in is in an suitable tower and its anchorage You can erect a hobby tower as I call them which is nothing more than a single pipe using guy wires to secure it in place but those to me are pretenders. Most folks who decide to get into wind do not have my skill set so they would have to buy their engineered towers, such as a Rohn will set you back The Rohn guyed towers are a favorite among the Ham radio folks but Rohn engineers all types of towers both guyed and free standing Next comes the anchorage.
-=-=-= 
Far too many home turbines have failed and caused extensive damage and sometimes even deaths from improper anchoring guys have been pulled from the ground towers have folded and so on 
-=-=-=
Even a well engineered freestanding tower if there are not tons of concrete with deep roots to support the base one day there will be a freak 90 MPH micro burst of a gust that will bring it to the ground. 
-=-=-=
Some engineers in fact mistakenly believe that a base designed for a 120 ft tower meant to support a set of 10 highway lights will support a wind turbine tower of only 60 ft with a 21 ft diameter turbine set and generator nacel for ever. WRONG WRONG WRONG Lobbing off the upper 60 ft of tower and using the bottom section may be plenty strong for the generator and turbine. However the forces against the turbine even if the blades are at "0" pitch of the turbine is rotated to full stall can be tremendous because wind is un-predictable at best, it can change directions by 1 to 180 ° in an instant leaving the full cord area of the blades facing the wind.
-=-=-=-
I used to do some marine engineering for break waters and sea walls so in large part I associate wind engineering with marine and I have studied the effects of wind on both low and high structures. I would be comfortable in designing my own tower footing but would not ever place my stamp if I still had one on someone else's I'll leave that to the PE's with civil and structural degrees on their walls.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Now for the short answer to your question about wind Yes I do have plans on wind but time and $$$ will make any design or build somewhere in the future. 
As far as flexibility in my approach I am supposed to have 2 industrial UPS units coming to me which were used by a large international financial investments firm. When they arrive sometime next month I hope to be able to finalize my system design
-=-=-=- 
I have several industrial controls panels and switch gear to chose from when I start building my shop so some of this may even find its way into the electrical needs of it.

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C-Bag (Sep 29, 2016),

Paul Jones (Oct 1, 2016),

PJs (Sep 29, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 29, 2016)

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## C-Bag

Thanks for the info Frank. It's what I've always suspected but you can't always get the details about things like this without digging for a long time. When I read on one site that a minimum tower should be at least 100' around here I knew the logistics were not going to work. Not enough room even for a 20', much less 60 or 100'. It sounds like you have plenty of room around you and can do pretty much as you please  :Cool: 

As with any big leap no matter how I try to research it there's always surprises. In the mail today we received our first whole months bill since getting the net billing started with PG&E, $9,(that's the min bill) WoooHooooo! But also got two notices from the county, one on the install of the EV charge station, and one on the solar panels. It seems they need to re assess for property taxes, boooooo. Didn't see that one coming. 

Meanwhile nobody is making PG&E accountable for how they don't sell you back the power you put in the grid at the same rate and they just zero you out at your anniversary of install, as long as you don't owe them. It doesn't pay to put out more than you use here. I understand this is not the case in other states.

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Paul Jones (Oct 1, 2016),

PJs (Sep 29, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 29, 2016)

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## MeJasonT

I like the modern saying of think outside the box. Its total stupidity and brainless in my view, I'll explain.
I'm not allowed to be an Engineer as I don't have a degree so perhaps a little jealous but when I hear the box statement being made I can only think of two things. Firstly those outside the thinking/design process are normal everyday people in the outside world not the highly educated boffins who design inside the box. secondly the only people I hear making this remark are those incapable of even finding the box let alone having a thought sat at its periphery. If the box were an arse they would find it difficult to locate it with both hands.
If I work the land I'm a farmer, if i work for 25 years in engineering i'm a technician (like a bin man - refuse technician or nail salon nail technician). Surely if you work in engineering you could argue your an Engineer.

Reminds me of the famous quote made by Mario.
All of my life I builder the bridges, only once I maker love to the sheep, so they call me - Mario the master bridge builder. No!

I read an article on the engineer magazine website last week stating that the days of a lonely creative inventor working from his shed and inventing the next great thing was dead and that most of these inventions amounted to nothing anyways. The author claimed that the best ideas and technology came from corporate design departments which possessed all the skills under one roof. Don't make me laugh, iv'e seen some horrendous ideas come out of such places and simple stupid mistakes, as an apprentice I was often chastised for pointing out the obvious. he must have forgotten that Einstein and numerous other inventors worked at home in their sheds.

FrankS 's quote is what inspired me to reply and sums up just what the present population think of hardworking inventive people. The day I end up behind a desk with a pen, I will stick it in my eye. I was thinking more harry-carry but perhaps stupidity as I will be qualified to do such things by then.

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C-Bag (Sep 29, 2016),

Paul Jones (Oct 2, 2016),

PJs (Sep 29, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 29, 2016)

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## PJs

Frank, I like your distribution ideas for your place and agree about tower building by a PE or a person like yourself with decades of that kind of experience, not just putting a pole up with guy wires with a hope and prayer. Personally I favor VAWT over axial at this point whether a traditional V or horizontal mainly because of the lateral wind loads and stall issues on a 60'-100' tower, let alone the tip velocity issue. They also have the advantage for directionality. The real conundrum is whether we spin fast or slow or somewhere in between. It's a heck of a spun mass at 21' diameter either way and can become quite a hand grenade if direct coupled or through clutch brake system if mother nature sneezes and things go awry. At 60' the air stream is a bit steadier typically and at 100' it's better but can be more violent for whatever you are spinning. VAWT's by design typically spin more easily with less wind and can be operated on a roof top or small platform but it still comes down to the conundrum and coupling of whatever generator system is used. There are a lot of innovative foil/vane technologies out there now but can see some improvement still, imho. Also the wind data is becoming more and more available and feel you are graced with a 3 station triangle for your area...hopefully you can get the data easily when you are ready.

As for generation, I love the idea of Re-Up-Cycling and scrounge because I resemble that.  :Stick Out Tongue:  The Axial flux is a cheep and cheerful way to go for what ever system it's tied to. However, probably 25 years ago I read in NASA Tech Briefs (back page with the new patents) that Motorola had patented a new rotor system (First since Tesla) that increased the output of an alternator by 3X which meant the typical car alternator could go from 30A to 100A with only a marginal increase (<5%) in load. Back in the early 80's I had already converted a GM alternator to 3phase ~120V out depending on RPM. There are a ton of builders/companies out there selling them now with the newer designed rotors, at a price of course...but how many have thought of or tried tying a PV or peltier to it to drive the stator?...me...works and only a small battery to start it and only ~30-100ma to keep it going depending on load. Neodymium magnets are pricey because of the resources/equipment that it takes to produce them. They are coming down because of the economy of scale though. To me some of the issues with Axial flux are the ratcheting and losses from that, the coupling system and heat losses will limit output to somewhere around the 1-3kw level as you indicated, but for a home DIY system on the cheep and cheerful add-on for E-power a good start. My other thought is the conundrum of AC/DC efficiency. With an AC 3ph VAWT one could place it probably up to a hundred yards or more from distribution controls with off the shelf or up-cycled materials maybe even 3 circuits of 12Ga might give you up to ~50A without too much loss, definitely less than 2-4/O CU at that distance for DC? Once you add a bridge and load resistors things go down hill fast, which leads to the rest of the AC/DC equation for the house and shop equipment/appliances with distribution.

One thing about your situation and others jumping in C-Bag, is that self feeding engine we live in. It's great you got a $9 PGE bill even with the hidden additional costs magically showing up. Yes the ROI gets extended a bit but the fact that you jumped in both feet in something you are passionate about is not easily measured in ROI, but a whale of a add to the cause. As Paul said the other day it's about your pursuit of happiness and doing the right thing for yourself in that pursuit. We can't always change nor control those who figure out how to keep it in their favor, but its a good start (imho) in the right direction and momentum/inertia and may/will hopefully lead us out of the dark ages of forethought and back-rubbing. Government/corporate coddling has gone on since Plato, maybe longer, so maybe it can't be changed...but maybe it can...just wish it would hurry up before my small time here ends and I get to see it....or make something to help it.

As for Grid Tie I'm not very much on board with it, but until battery/storage tech is a bit better their are some benefits. It all takes time & duckets to ferret out...no magic 8 ball or wand, just a vision to work towards.

Not sure if this was "Out of the Box" or an old coot pondering the possible but have been studying this stuff a _long time_...by and by winding the watch of my wit...perhaps it will strike soon. 

~PJ

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C-Bag (Sep 29, 2016),

Paul Jones (Oct 2, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 29, 2016)

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## Frank S

MeJasonT, welcome to the thread of eclecticism. New blood or meat for the grinder is always highly sought after when forum threads like this one for some reason just will hot die off. 
When it comes to "the box" I prefer a sphere or the very least an omni dimensional sprial helix where there can be no inside or outside TO fully visualize my thoughts one must think in more planes than are thought to exist 
http://laughingsquid.com/wp-content/...ng-2ssssss.gif 
In my mind there are no actual insides or outsides I once reverse engineered a very popular at the time piece of oilfield equipment only to come up with a unit which cost less than 1/4 to produce was less than half the weight and twice as efficient with at least as good (some said) even better durability. The thing was even compatible with off the shelf internal consumables 
The thing was I managed to build the thing in my back yard nearly 25 years before I had any degree in anything, Before that 3 or 4 of us designed and built an entire 5000 ft drill depth capacity rig for less than the cost of just a draw-works on a conventional drill rig at the time, and we did it in a small 2000 sf shop sitting on less than half an acre.
-=-=-=-
Big corporate engineering think tanks Ha, Ha, Ha. Our rig along with all of its equipment could be transported set up and drilling to full depth requiring only 4 persons for the entire operation.
--=-=---=
PJs There is nothing wrong with using PV for excitation instead of magnets. When using a wound rotor instead of one with magnets to create a magnetic field Just like you back in the 80s I dabbled briefly with modifying automotive alternators top get 3 ph I once took a Chrysler alt with 36 coils and a small fractional Hp 3 ph motor then pulled out all of the coil leads and rew connected them to make a 9 ph motor and generator directly coupled to each other, first I powered the alt with a lawnmower engine then I tried it with a wind fan not a 3 bladed turbine, the engine the thing work but I never could get enough speed out of the windmill due to low height and fickle winds to get much out if it in gusts if around 20 MPH with a 5 inch grinding wheel I could sharpen a lawnmower blade but less than that it would stall out. It wasn't until just a few years ago while searching the net that I learned of anyone else using more than 3 ph to try and produce electricity.
-=-=-=-
Another thing that a lot of people don't know about car alternators is since they operate in an extremely harsh environment having to deal wiht the under the hood temperatures and engine RPM's ranging from 700 to nearly 8000 on some vehicles they have to be designed to run at or near the bottom of the efficiency range if they are expected to last for 100's of 1000's miles.
By changing the design of the claws on the rotor can boost their output like you mentioned several times also if you induce high enough voltage to achieve magnetic field saturation of the rotor you can produce much higher amperage's Higher voltages + higher amperage = more heat which must be dissipated in some way adding fins and a larger fan can help or incorporating refrigeration coils. Encasing one in a sealed container and circulating dielectric oil would be another way to remove the heat of an extreme high output alt. design.

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Paul Jones (Oct 2, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 30, 2016)

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## C-Bag

Shop Truths, Phrases, Tales, And Outright Lies kinda says it all for me. 

The Truth for me is the division that happens when a company gets big enough to have workers and managers. 

The Phrases reflect that. Time is money. Why is there always time to do it over but never to do it right the first time. Workers see incompetence and waste at the top as the bane of their existence and management see sloth and lack of diligence at the bottom as the bane of their existence. Teamwork is the supposed goal where there is no real team, just them and us.

Tales of trying to succeed when the cards and the system in place seem to be all about thwarting efficiency, and pride of a job well done.

And the tide of Outright Lies that the real corporate think tanks continue to weave into our perceived reality. The American worker is not competitive because they are overpaid and lazy. Unions are bad, free(trade)markets are gospel. Out sourcing is the logical progression because of the preceding. Corporations are people and benevolent and will self regulate. Laws, taxes and regulations for corporations are bad, but the masses need more laws, taxes, enforcement and incarceration. Privatization of government is more efficient because the government should be run like a business because business leaders are so virtuous and smart.

HMT is where I see refugees like myself,observe, thinking of, make, and using, to think, make and use and on and on. Something I was not able to do as a wage slave.

I got your self evident truth hangin'!

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Paul Jones (Oct 2, 2016),

Philip Davies (Jun 13, 2021),

PJs (Sep 30, 2016),

Toolmaker51 (Sep 30, 2016)

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## Toolmaker51

> Shop Truths, Phrases, Tales, And Outright Lies kinda says it all for me.



 Aaarggh matey; tis' same fer all a' us I be a-wagerin'. 

I'll relate the 'excitement?' when emails pop regarding edits or posts to Shop Truths, Phrases, Tales, And Outright Lies. STPTaOL.
Creating a minor sensation is rewarding.
I appreciate more than ever how much there is to learn; ie posts on solar/ alt power recently --Waaay above my noggin. 
There is NO substitute for free thought. 
STPTaOL proves ability to envision, conceive, create and deliver, functions by means of all the senses.
Some apologize for hi-jacks. Why? Still free thought too, maybe even more so because it is reaction instead of response.
And bonding is not dependent on physical interaction.

C-Bags observations; Oh! To forward those to powers that be. 
We've conversed on plight of US worker; and ill-placed perceptions hung on them. Funny, back when persons rose more naturally into their position, far less a percentage condoned that even exist. 
For years now, haven't been able to shake notion the break-off occurred after Deming went to Asia and won an entire generation over with a few hundred pages of well observed theory. Suddenly 'we' are interns, amateurs, novices, devoid of seniority, credence, or value. 
But 'I' (not me) have a degree, a title, and a parking spot; with little experience beyond couple reams worth of term papers.
If you can fool a professor = easier to fool HR! 

Next resume package has what amount to essay responses; on leadership. Surprising little on credentials. To whit:
_In closing, the basis of leadership skills has only a partially natural facet. The larger portion, and more considerable factor is in those to be lead. Neither one alleviate burden on or empower a leader; only signal how engagement may be attained. Subordination is often interpreted as subjugation, and becomes micromanagement. Genuine, respected leaders are often at ease, especially when they present themselves authentically to subordinates as ‘one of their own’; instead of by uniform, title, parking spot or other artifice. 
Respectfully,
TM51_

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C-Bag (Oct 13, 2016),

Paul Jones (Oct 2, 2016),

PJs (Oct 1, 2016)

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## Toolmaker51

As promised. While not homemade, it was a facility doing one-off work. And one-off done correctly; based on experience, resources, and infinite restraints, demonstrates a high level of accomplishment. 
3rd. Niles Heavy Duty Planer Mill. Combines single point [or form tools] tooling on one ram and conventional 50 NM taper milling, 15-480 rpm on second ram, both mounted on cross rail, and 2 side heads attached at either column. The table measurements; 15' wide x 36' long, with *14'* under the rail! A planer should reach 100% of it's table real estate; meaning the footprint was occupied by not less than 72' of guideways. Compared to a lathe, in far less weight per square foot, all large machine tools require concrete foundations for stability, leveling, and vibration isolation. With full length ways a planer isn't very susceptible to it inbound. Weight transfer of a reciprocating iron chunk 15' x 36' at least 3' thick outbound affects machines nearby. 
Accurate DeVlieg 4'' spindle horizontal mill is supposed to bed on 4' depth concrete, rebar and solid compacted earth. [wait for it]
The Niles was around 1000' feet from Long Beach, CA shoreline and likely saltwater pools below. Reportedly she bed on 30' feet concrete. At 4000 lbs cu3, its 7.2 million lbs of counterweight. Designers [then retired] of foundation were thrilled SoCal earthquake history did not unsettle the bed. Even though leveling was initially theodolite and reflex optics, when lasers came in, millwrights still found no need for critical adjustments. 
I have a photo would love to post but scanning pixelates it horribly. I'll find other means.

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C-Bag (Feb 16, 2017),

Paul Jones (Feb 16, 2017)

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## C-Bag

This all staggers the imagination. I don't think one picture is going to be able to convey everything. It's hard enough to do it with our small offerings much less something of this scope. This and Frank's Van Norman truck/bus brake lathe can only be encompassed by imagination or direct observation probably. What did they DO on this Niles Heavy Duty Planer Mill? And please, no "anything they wanted". Any pics of things made on it? And something so massive it threw machines around it off? Did it throw gravity waves instead of swarf? So it had to be electronically controlled.....what time frame are we talking about here? Was it punch cards or? Did they make tank chassis out of billets of steel? Inquiring minds want to know!

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Paul Jones (Feb 16, 2017)

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## Paul Jones

ToolMaker51 and C-Bag,

I had to use the Google search for images to see what a Niles Heavy Duty Planer Mill looked like and wow are these massive. No wonder these need a very heavy concrete pad. Like C-Bag said, what did they machine on these lathes?

I have had limited exposure to large machine tools. My friend whose company makes very large capacity water pumps (some are 200,000 gallons per minute) installed a 72" swing Fanuc CNC vertical lathe with 48 tool selection and a secondary axis with another 24 tool selection. The machine arrive on four 18 wheelers and the largest machine section weighed 20,000 lbs. It has a lot of refrigeration gear to keep the machine at a constant temperature to maintain tolerances. When machining it has two large chip conveyor belts to carry away the massive amount of chips it produces. I know they poured a special floor to support the machine and built a safety interlock so the 25 ton overhead gantry cranes wouldn't crash into the top of the Fanuc when fully extended. This is the same shop that has a MacIntosh-Hemphill lathe (they raised the headstock, cross slide and tailstock for larger swing) originally used to machine the 16" guns for WWII battleships. I have to visit the MacIntosh-Hemphill lathe every time I tour their shop because it is a machine that you just don't see in most shops. Who needs stairs to operate their tailstocks?

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C-Bag (Feb 18, 2017),

Toolmaker51 (Feb 17, 2017)

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## MeJasonT

How big is the lathe that has to turn the chuck/faceplates for a MacIntosh-Hemphill lathe, its just to massive to comprehend. The lathe that makes the lathe that made it would be even bigger, do you see where i'm going with this. I have a friend who is a partner in Lawson Engineers in Cumbria who build large winch's for the offshore/submersible industry, I can remember Lawson's making there own gap bed to turn a long centre shaft. on this particular lathe they had to take out a section of the workshop wall to get the completed winch drum outside. How is That for thinking on your feet, you just don't say no to customers when you are a small business.

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Paul Jones (Feb 17, 2017),

Toolmaker51 (Feb 17, 2017)

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## Toolmaker51

Uh, that's a lot of questions! Which I'll enjoy responding to. 
Going to try another scanner that's available, or digitize them via camera. This auction pleased me no end to be a part of, and retained the auction catalog, sometimes use as bait part of my resume, when attending interviews.

That cues a favorite sort of image. No matter how large a machined part is...an equivalent or larger machine made IT. It finally gets to where gigantic items are assembled. But they still need transportation and rigging so elements become useful assemblies. 
Same auction had a variety of bridge cranes. Largest in catalog is 50 ton, 78' 8" span. No control hanging from a pendant; a vertical ladder provided access to operator's cab. 6 way movement, double girders and most had a second smaller hoist to suspend and manipulate workpieces. All were sold. A very well known machinery mover disassembled each on site. Their forklifts had 4 hydraulic posts, one at each corner of the chassis, joined by a platen above the operator. Using at least two, one under each end of girder, they'd lower it so conventional forklifts could load trailers. I recall a couple of those double gooseneck rigs, with something like 126 road tires, [yes one hundred twenty-six].

One capability of planer's is making forming dies for press brakes. There was an IMMENSE Pacific; 1500 ton and 23' long platen/ die holder. I'm sure that it could manage additional length beyond the ends for lighter material, seems the upper [moving side] was 4" thick. 
I'm compelled to get a scanner for you guys, HAVE to. This is going to be fun!

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C-Bag (Feb 18, 2017),

Paul Jones (Feb 17, 2017)

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## C-Bag

Yup, and I had to throttle my questions because I was going into thermal runaway. I'm glad MeJasonT asked the one I pinched it off with. Regular folks like my SO are blown away you need machines to make machines. It's just all outside of their experience. But machine tools of this size that like the one Paul posted that look suspiciously like a diesel train engine are way outside my experience. 

Good one Paul. And I always wondered where and how they turned those 16" guns on battleships.

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Paul Jones (Feb 19, 2017),

Toolmaker51 (Feb 19, 2017)

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## MeJasonT

This is worth a look

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Toolmaker51 (Feb 19, 2017)

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## Toolmaker51

> This is worth a look



If they were to do a layout; it'd be Dykem in a pressure washer :Rimshot: 

I don't recall mentioning how I ended up champing at the bit literally ''...to be a machinist". 
It was a family vacation; about 7 years of age, a long road trip. No idea where we were before or headed to, but we stopped at Hoover Dam, basically right next to Las Vegas, Nevada. The tour went through much of the interior. Sheer Franklin D. Roosevelt New Deal immensity, so I was getting pretty lit up.
Two areas dealt considerable excitement; the turbine room, and especially the machine shop. Everything field-day spotless, brightly lit, and roughly 700 feet below the roadway on the dam connecting Arizona and Nevada. I'm quoting, but it isn't precise. Anyway, I asked tour guide "...how they get them down here?". "Well this part of the dam was built around them...". "yeah, but how did they get them down here?" There was a huge engine lathe, a shaft lathe, not oilfield style. Probably an Axelson, American, Monarch, or Lodge & Shipley. My fantasy says American Pacemaker.
It was and impression it made remain the most beautiful thing I'd ever seen; [save a few human females]. From then on, normal kids said fireman, policeman, doctor, scientist, politician, network analyst, write suicide clauses for insurance policies...when asked ''whadyya gonna do when you grow up"? 
Not me. First it was just machinist, began studying it evolved becoming Toolmaker after reading bio on John M. Browning, around 11 years old. 
Still no cure has been found, with additional side side effects. Intermingling vocation, career & avocation, tool acquisition syndrome, cast iron dependency, mental maps highlighting salvage yards, rustyitemitus at yard sales [running past moo-moos, baby bottles, and non-engineering textbooks], distracted driving while rigged loads pass. Most severe cases have cantwaitformonday, and overtimehellyes, generally income is a requirement of the disease, in pursuing a continual fix. And all those make me happy!
Hey Frank S, same for you? I know C-Bag's got it...Like our milk cartons with missing kids, HMT.net has nearly 15,000 poster-kids.

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Philip Davies (Jun 13, 2021)

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## C-Bag

LOL, amen brother. Hi, I'm C-Bag and I am an addict. 

TAS is never under control or curable. I laughed out out at several of your symtoms, so true, so true. 

What's funny I just got back from breakfast and while we were in the little town across the bay my SO spotted a estate sale. 99 out of 100 times they are a total dud with the aforementioned moo moo's and little old lady bric a brac but being the good egg I am I gave in. I was immediately attracted to the garage and there were actually some tools. I spied some old oil cans and was checking them out when SO said hey, is this something. I only looked the the price and saw $100 so it was already relegated to the resistible column. But it was a complete set of threading dies, something I'd been on the lookout, and actually was a good price, but still resist able. One of the oil cans didn't work right and I noted this to the guy running the sale and he said, well it's the last day and everything is 50% off.....everything? Yes....oh oh. So he said he'd throw in the two cans,,,, such a deal, $50.

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Paul Jones (Feb 21, 2017)

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## C-Bag

This is another set I got off CL, maybe not such a steal but most of the reamers were still in their wax paper. Obviously off a ship and $120, was missing two reamers, but otherwise all there.i can't for some reason upload the pic of the list of all the reamers, but what is showing its only the top tier.

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Paul Jones (Feb 21, 2017)

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## Toolmaker51

Greenlee Tap and Die Plate; just great cutters, best diestocks & tap wrenches ever made, is all. 
And need be, use them to make old lady bric-a-brac. It'll sure never happen ta-otha-wayround. Then the SO will get it.
I do like that the two of you are referred to in the posts; oddly a facet of whatever homemade success is. Also tickled that symptoms, while having madeup names are so real. Making them up got laughs at this end too. Forgot one; about cash. That's a flurry of moths escaping an open wallet.

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## C-Bag

It is a little scary what a good team we are. I get the feeling Frank's wife is integral to his TAS too. I have to be careful what I bring up because my best half will take it on as a priority. While some would see this as great(and it is) it makes it very hard to stay in my lane and not get carried away. Where we live the housing is just ridiculous so there have been several places come up that have incredible shops but the cost is just not within reason. Especially when I factor in how old we both are. It's sad to realize there less road out front than behind. So much to do and learn still. 

These crazy estate sales seem to run in spurts. There was another old guy sale we went to this morning. It seemed he was a brake and suspension guy with a great shop behind his house. Several great heavy cabinets for $25ea! And one cab had a brake shoe grinder mounted on it, $25. When was the last time you saw a shoe grinder? Last one I saw was probably 20-40yrs ago. The cabs would have been great, especially for the price, but i just don't have the room which is by design. I know it doesn't make sense but I'm too that point of going in all these old guy shops and seeing the poor widow and family dealing with us old guys looking for deals trying to keep from turning into hoarders ourselves. The one that was killing me was a shoe riveting station with built in grinder. I knew it would be $25 too and I'd HAVE to have it as there might be room and I could mod it for something I'd use......so I didn't ask  :Smile:  Dodged the bullet, backed away from the hoarder intervention.

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Paul Jones (Feb 21, 2017),

Philip Davies (Jun 13, 2021)

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## Frank S

C-bag Brake shoe grinders sadly have fallen by the wayside about as much as the riveting machines have. Just about the only riveted shoes seen any more are the ones on large trucks and trailers. Last year I must have replaced shows and drums on at least 10 transport trailers. With all of the new safety regs now, it doesn't pay liability wise to replace shoes without using new drums as well. Before you could take your drums in for a regrind then have the new shoes radius ground to match. But with the advent of auto-slack adjusters then the addition of anti lock brakes on big rigs all drums and shoes need to be a very close match or the stupid systems go nuts. Add in the documented fact that today's truck drivers are less qualified, poorly trained and only holding on to the steering wheel for a paycheck. With absolutely no knowledge of how to preform any sort of emergency repairs to get to a repair facility, couple all of this with the fact that trucking companies are not owned or run by trucking managers or persons with much to do with the trucking industry,but rather are run by BEAN COUNTERS and lobbyist. 
Now when it comes to making big machines the question was how to make something that big without a bigger machine to make it.
Well a Man by the name of letourneau once needed a big machine that did not exist to make his even larger equipment so He poured tons and tons of concrete then embedded railroad rails to become the ways then poured more concrete as a solid tower to hold the turning head the carriage was so large that the operator road on it that is how big gets bigger

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## Toolmaker51

Thread Hijacks? Meandering? Lack of Focus? Too much Information? Shameless Grandstanding?
No. No. Obviously not,. Not likely. Sharing isn't self promotion.
A brief impression of why HMT.net forum is more than just successful. Here is kind of a little story, much like a physical discussion, but in a dozen time zones.
From general tool-building forum on turning MT2 tapers; related accuracy issues and one on lapping vs. scraping. It is known we comment freely, hovering over projects that round up stray ducks into a row. These aren't hijacks, jobs should be considered as faceted processes. Looking at the angles raises everyone's abilities. 
To whit; and not quotes, just brief notes on a set of reactions.
Christophe Mineau initiated with a template hack for setting tapers.
Captainleeward concurred, offering remedy for errant crosslides.
Metric-taper commented on lapping; concerned with the residue and negative effects of SiC2 [silicon carbide] particles. Next, link posted to CNCZone forum on the scrape/ lap controversy. 
C-Bag related improvements attained from his first such leap on his 9 x 20 Asian lathe.
Hemi lamented his Unimats require swiveling headstock to accomplish tapers.
C-Bag related investment in time & tools following a CD book, was far less satisfying than THE bible on fitting and professional scrapers.
Toolmaker51 laid down what makes lapping work, and the more suitable effects of scraping. Both have their place, rarely the same place. A logical start doesn't always produce results anticipated. An aside was how toolpost grinding could contaminate union of ways and carriage without proper cover.
Metric-taper recalled he hadn't done such for years, and shielded even more extensively than "proper". His concern has lowered, in relation to 'time he has left'. 

'Time left' doesn't come up often. I suppress it, 20 years after first deciding to create a shop that still needs lighting. Sure that many have equal thoughts. 
Well, Rome wasn't built in a day. Even with near infinite resources to buttress those plans. And clear evidence stands 2000+ years later.

With any luck at all, this collection [HMT.net] of ideas will stand long enough to fuel a new wave of craftsmanship.

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metric_taper (May 13, 2017)

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## Frank S

Excellent summation, Another INMHO of the value of HMT.net is the wide varied range of projects posted each with their own often vivid descriptions serve as springboards which conger up long since forgotten memories of days gone by bringing life long experiences back to the forefront. By sharing these experiences with others expands the ever growing pool of universal consciousness, hopefully in some way will preserve knowledge for future generations of millennia to come when homo sapiens becomes sentient enough to eventually one day join with the possible vast collective of advanced beings thought to inhabit the universe.

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Toolmaker51 (May 14, 2017)

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## mklotz

Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description.

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Toolmaker51 (May 14, 2017)

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## Frank S

> Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description.



 yes and currently the species which calls itself human in the grand scope of the cosmos is probably only slightly further advanced than homo erectus. Which is more probably one reason why we have not been invited to petition for acceptance in the league of sentient beings. Through out history "my opinion only",there have been gentle and not so gentle nudges offered or imposed to a select few however since the rest of us low forehead class have not been exposed or privy to these nudges from their sources everything from fear , hate, envy, superstition and most likely some religions have grown and allowed to fester into suppurating boils.
Jules Henri Poincaré formulated a theory, sorry Mr Einstein but his paper was published before yours only it was a much longer and more complex therefor due to the low foreheads limited ability to grasp the context of the time, Your's became the renowned catch phrase of all time. I believe you were both only half correct, rather it would be the inverse cubed to the nth But since I am one of the lower foreheads inhabiting this planet barely able to grasp the concept of 7 dimensional existence with a total lack of mathematical skills to even begin summarizing my theory I am perfectly content to cobble out crude implements which assist me in my daily tasks.

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C-Bag (May 15, 2017),

olderdan (May 13, 2017),

Toolmaker51 (May 14, 2017)

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## Frank S

Jeesh after re reading the previous post today, I knew I shouldn't have watched a marathon of ancient aliens yesterday I can sometimes really get out there philosophically sorry guys

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## mklotz

> Jeesh after re reading the previous post today, I knew I shouldn't have watched a marathon of ancient aliens yesterday I can sometimes really get out there philosophically sorry guys



When I read it, I thought...

Who are you and what have you done with Frank?

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Toolmaker51 (May 15, 2017)

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## C-Bag

> Jeesh after re reading the previous post today, I knew I shouldn't have watched a marathon of ancient aliens yesterday I can sometimes really get out there philosophically sorry guys



Please don't appologize Frank, I think there are several of us who totally agree. I have to admit I was stunned not that it was you, but that this thread took this turn. My favorite aspect of this whole thread is getting to see "under the hood" of the different folks who have shared. I too am a big fan of sci-fi and have aspired to the higher ideals that scientists, mathematicians and philosophers have tried to lead us to. Especially in light of present threats of a new dark age where the hard fought gains of the last century are trying to be negated with the all too familiar rise of fear and loathing of the "other" it's especially insightful to ponder how far we've really come.

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Toolmaker51 (May 15, 2017)

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## Toolmaker51

> Please don't appologize Frank, I think there are several of us who totally agree. I have to admit I was stunned not that it was you, but that this thread took this turn. My favorite aspect of this whole thread is getting to see "under the hood" of the different folks who have shared. I too am a big fan of sci-fi and have aspired to the higher ideals that scientists, mathematicians and philosophers have tried to lead us to. Especially in light of present threats of a new dark age where the hard fought gains of the last century are trying to be negated with the all too familiar rise of fear and loathing of the "other" it's especially insightful to ponder how far we've really come.



Well, I was very lucky to apply a descriptive, broad, and inviting title. 
"Shop Truths, Phrases, Tales; and Outright Lies"
By the way, it was 04-23-2016, 03:24 PM! Sure pulls a lot of traffic. 
It's YOU guys that make it generate. Gems, one and all.

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## Frank S

The other day a thread conjured a memory of when I was doing contract work at the Caterpillar rebuild shop. I don't now know which thread it was because often simple off had phrases will trigger these 
Working there I often was charged with the task of building up pins or shafts and the bearing locations they were used in then line boring them hence my avatar
I couldn't possibly carry every machine or piece of equipment on my welding rig even though it was a double frame Ford F350 cab 10 ft bed 14,000lb rear end powered by a 1160 V8 cat with a 10 sp Road ranger and a 2 sp Spicer auxiliary transmission. I kept my Victor 16/40 lathe a homemade welding rotator and a homemade annealing / heat treat oven in their shop.
One day I was out on a field service call for the company while back at the shop this guy I will call "T" thought he wanted to draw some of the much higher pay rate that they were paying me So he took it upon his self to weld up a few pins on my rotator. "B the shop manager asked him what he was doing ( All of this I learned the next day when I returned) T said he needed some of the higher pay rate because his wife needed a root canal done. B told him that they would see at the end of the day but did he realize that the equipment he was using did not belong to the company. Yeah but I use a lot of frank's tools all the time and he has never said anything, besides I've watched him and I know everything there is to know about welding these pins and I can run any lathe ever made. 
That should have been a HUGE red flag to B but he blew it off since T was a fairly good welder good enough to have made it through the last 2 contractor layoffs.
Skip to the next morning 6AM B and I open the shop before we even turn on the lights he says I think you may not want to see what happened here yesterday. 
What's up I asked. Now B was the type of man who would not say a foul word even if he had a mouth full of excrement 
Well for starters the owner nearly fired my *** yesterday for something I let T do using your equipment. But he didn't only because he had sent me out on a service call as well so no one was here to supervise the other welders. All of you contractors are professionals anyway and only need me to assign them to a job.
So what went on with T he uses some of my tools all the time I never allow him or anyone to use my machines but heck I have special tools that even the company mechanics borrow from time to time.
That's just it T was building up some pins.
Good that means all i have to do is anneal them them today and tomorrow I can turn them.
No they will have to be welded again and that is why T will not be here anymore and a new chuck has been ordered for your lathe 
By now the lights have made i to full brightness but My only response to hes mention of a chuck was WHAT!! 
then I saw the abomination of the work that T had tried to do. there were 6 4 inch diameter 18 inch long pins laying around the lathe that looked like they had been machined in a shredding machine no dogging lugs welded on the end of any of them. I always welded a lug on 1 end then use a dead center in the chuck and a live center in the tail-stock. but T hadn't he had tried to chuck up on the welded surface the chuck key handle was "S" shaped the chuck would not open there was a years supply of ruined carbide inserts scattered on the floor a pile of chips and thick razor spring turnings just about buried the lathe and to top it off the 1 of the 30 amp fuses was burned out

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Paul Jones (May 18, 2017),

Toolmaker51 (May 17, 2017)

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## C-Bag

Hmmm, what a mess Frank. This thread also triggers stuff like when folks are telling jokes and it jogs something loose. And in this case and so many others it's stuff you don't necessarily want to remember.

I always seemed to be the guy who would need to use a shop tool after some bozo had destroyed the thing and slunk off. Or catch some cretin in the act...like a doofus trying to chuck up a truck brake drum on the brake lathe when it was not made for it. And over and over drop that huge drum on the mandrel and wonder why everything turned on it after was not true. Or the time the foreman's drug addled son is palletizing stuff using a roofing nailer instead of the staple gun. The guy and I prepping the pallets of machinery hear what sounds like echo's off the insulation on the wall behind us. When we realized he was using the wrong gun and the "echo" was not an echo, but the roofing nails hitting the wall above us! My partner went over and read him the riot act (very scary, I called him the human forklift)and the zombie kid just looked at him dully, then went back to doing it again. Of course there was no foreman around so we just stood on the other side of the shop and ducked until somebody showed up to find out why we weren't working. He was just moved to some other menial job, probably turning that into a deadly accident waiting to happen, but at least not next to us! Always brought back one of my Okie grandpa's many colorful euphemisms, "he could f*** up an anvil with a feather...."

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Paul Jones (May 18, 2017),

Philip Davies (Jun 13, 2021),

Toolmaker51 (May 17, 2017)

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## Frank S

As a guy who actually broke the horn off a 460lb anvil with a 16 lb sledge when I was working at the blacksmith shop I know that it can't be done with a feather but it can be done LOL
We had an old anvil mounted on a stump cut off right at the ground, it was only used for things way too large for normal smithing. Clarance my mentor and his 45 year old son William were holding a large piece of steel while I wielded the sledge a Yellow jacket stung me just as I was on a down swing, the rest was but of a good laugh for years

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Paul Jones (May 18, 2017),

Toolmaker51 (May 17, 2017)

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## C-Bag

Wow, remind me to never shake your hand. My grandpa was a blacksmith then the Dustbowl hit and he came out to the Central Valley and worked on International Harvesters for 40+yrs. he just loved to shake some poor fools hand just to hear their knuckles pop. It was our little ritual until I could match him in my late teens. I guess the lesson of the story is never underestimate the power of the sting! Or like grandpa would say, "mess with the bull and ya get the horn", or break it  :Smile:

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Paul Jones (May 18, 2017)

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## Frank S

We had a good laugh of the anvil breaking the anvil was old and well beaten up was why it was mounted so near to the ground for things we needed to really knock the snot out of it was perfect. until I broke about 10 inches of the horn off.
William allowed that he could weld it back on so in my spare time I cut and ground both pieces until he was satisfied he rand 3 or 4 rods to get enough tack weld as we called it to hold it together then we hung a beam over the large forge and heated the whole anvil till he thought it was hot enough to take the weld. then we hauled it over and sat it on a steel table where he welded on it until late that night I kept a #12 rose bud waving over it the whole time when he finished welding we tacked some sheet metal on the table to make a box then poured heated lime over it till it covered there whole anvil about 6 " 2 days later we un packed the still warm anvil then William built up the face with hard surface rod, I ground it flat and we had for all intents and purposes a new anvil 
I'd pay real money for it if I could find it today.

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Paul Jones (May 18, 2017),

Philip Davies (Jun 13, 2021)

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## C-Bag

Just out of curiosity Frank, is doing stuff like that anvil repair science or gut feeling? How did those old blacksmiths know how hot something got? Did they use temple sticks or was it "I think that's hot enough.."? 

Every old mechanic I ever worked with had his own way and if you went out on any shop floor and said "what do you think is wrong with this?" You'd get as many different answers as there were wrench twisters and what was important and what wasn't. How much was art and how much was science? The picture of a blacksmith is of some brute banging away in an impossibly hot shop and it makes me wonder is he making Damascus steel or just beating on a anvil to make his ears ring?

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## Frank S

C-bag I can only say form my experience that it is a little bit of both. A sI have said many times I started hanging around the Blacksmith shop early on in life. nearly as dar back as I can remember I have been fascinated by how things were made and why or what made them work or not work I basically started my apprenticeship with working with metals it the Blacksmith shop at the age of 11 however I can remember trying to make or alter things as far back as 4 or 5 years old plus my dad and Grandfather used to tell others stories of how when I was much younger than that my dad would lay an old furniture blanket on his shop floor put me down on it and hand me things like carburetors and distributors and tools to play with. It wasn't long before as they told it that I would be trying to take them apart. 
I can remember the my first trip to the Blacksmith shop, while the reason for our visit is not clear I can remember that it did involve My Grand pa having something done that Clarance Use his forge for and he let me try to crank the blower to make the fire hotter I was barely tall enough to turn the long crank handle so I couldn't have been more than 6 or 7 at the time. 
By the time I started my apprenticeship there I already had a some knowledge of the working around the shop. in the mornings i would empty the clinker and ash out of the bottom of the forges sweep up around the shop cut weeds around the outside and generally straighten things up
But your question was about the art or science or gut instinct of knowing how to tell when something was hot enough. I have to say that it is combination of these because one without the other is of little value. in itself. if a person acts on gut instinct alone he will have to develop his own science through trial and error .if a person only knows the science he will not be able to accomplish the desired results until he has tried many methods which will be chalked up as trials and errors while his experiences accumulate until he develops a gut instinct.
Learning how to tell how hot something is or needs to be takes these experiences being able to tell how hot something is by using natural substances like water lard refined oils paper wood and color visualization and rare earth powders is a learned trait. the use of temple-sticks have only become a standard in the last 40 years or so as a means of exacting the science.
I have been welding for over 50 years across a wide range of metals I can join most things together and expect them to become one but I have known many welders in specialized facets of the industry who made me look like a novice I bought my first lathe nearly 50 years ago and have machined a lot of things I have even made a couple of rifles, and lots of complex hydraulic components, but there are dozens of machinist right here on these forums who know so much more about machining than I do that if our work were to be laied side by side mine would be hucked into the rubbish bin, I've designed and built freight elevators to raise many tons at a time and steel structures several stories high. I've designed many specialized industrial machines and the list could go on and on but for anything and just about everything I know or have done I have personally met and are friends with many who know more and have done more than I will even do or know. many of them still call me from time to time just to chat or ask my thoughts about a problem they are faced with. Right now I am designing a conveyance device to transport some 70 ton precast beams on top of a building that the 350 ton crane they have available can not do for a PE friend of mine because he says that I am somehow savant in stuff like that. So I will have a go at designing it he will have it made tested and refined at his factory in Dubai then ship it somewhere else where ever his project is then hopefully it will work as I envision it 
You wanted a look under the hood but I'm afraid that all you found was a model A engine in a Bugatti world.

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Paul Jones (Jun 3, 2017),

Philip Davies (Jun 13, 2021),

Toolmaker51 (May 18, 2017)

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## C-Bag

"You wanted a look under the hood but I'm afraid that all you found was a model A engine in a Bugatti world."

You make that sound like a bad thing  :Smile:  I'm far more suspicious of complicated and fancy than I am of plain and simple. My grandpa whom I spent a LOT of time with when young truly epitomized "don't judge a book by its cover". He had a 3rd grade education but could convey the most profound and complicated things very simply. 

I used to go out to see him in the evenings after work and one day I mentioned replacing the hydrostatic unit from a John Deer lawn tractor and how I'd taken it apart just to see how in the world it worked. He proceeded to pull out stacks of manuals and flow charts that he'd gotten from the special training he received while head mech. They sent him to school several times like when IH came out with the cotton picker and the same chassis to harvest corn. They had hydro stats and at one time he was the only guy west of the Rocky's who could fix them. In a certain way his time as a blacksmith made him more than qualified to be a cornbinder mech as them things were not easy to work on. His meager tool box was mostly pry bars, short handled sledge hammers and bent wrenches. Simple, but effective.

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Paul Jones (Jun 3, 2017),

Philip Davies (Jun 13, 2021),

Toolmaker51 (May 18, 2017)

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## Frank S

Autodidacticism is about the only true way for someone to fully understand how things function, even when attending hands on training seminars or sitting in a formal class room if a person is not somewhat autodidact they will come away knowing little more than they started.
In today's world the entire education system from pre K through post grad has been summarily reduced in its effectiveness to create the spark which ignites the yearning to learn as much as one is capable of so if an individual does not poses the gene if there is 1 which causes autodidacticism that person might as well seek out a job where they will be led literally by hand to preform the same robotic task over and over through out their lives.

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Toolmaker51 (May 18, 2017)

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## C-Bag

I'm sure we are in the same spiral cul de sac here Frank, but I think a true autodidact is just about as obscure a term as real Homo sapiens. There are just so many people in my life that either jump started me, or dropped some mother load of info/inspiration and it would seem you have too. Maybe if we were more isolated there could be some true autodidact but we just have too much access to info. You being dyslexic would definitely be an isolating factor but I seem to remember your vast libraries so I'll be you didn't just sleep with them under your pillow. My impression is the true autodidact learns it by doing with no outside influence. And while admirable in a way, and there is a possibility they could truly be outside the box, for my limited apprehension I'm just glad to have access to places like this and folks with way more wherewithal to keep me stumbling along. I guess that makes me a manualdidact?

I also meant to give TM51 a tip of the hat for starting this thread. I just hope it doesn't somehow reach some kind of swirling critical mass and suck HMT into another dimension  :Smile:

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Paul Jones (Jun 3, 2017)

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## Frank S

yep must say that I ma in full agreement there my friend. I encountered a young man while in the middle East the company had hired and sent him to me for job placement evaulation.
Right out of the starting gate he stated that he was working on his master's thesis and that he was autodidact. 
I said oh! So you are telling me you have zero formal studies yet you have already achieved or been awarded at a minimum 2 prior degrees, which I see listed here on your CV. since a Masters is a graduate level study they are not simply handed out to just anyone who writes a few thousand words down on paper 

As to the thread reaching critical mass we are probably some 10,000 pages away from that. But if it happens I'm pretty sure that there would be a portal unseen by us until needed which would open allowing us to traverse back and forth through the transcendental dimensions.
But it may be be something like the impossibility of a true 2 dimensional existence once a line has been drawn on it. Flat plane in appearance yes but even if a sketch were drawn form lines that were only 1 molecule wide it would have at least 1 molecule in height therefore a sketch to me at least is 3 dimensional.
so why wouldn't there be a portal. It may be that HMT is in itself another dimension

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## C-Bag

.............

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## Frank S

First off you got to love this thread for its longevity.

THe rolling mill I bought had a 15 KW motor 280 mm diameter rollers by 300 mm wide the shafts were 110 mm diameter so it was not a little girl machine 
A large part of it was clearly an in house fabrication by who ever built it in the first place and due to the accumulation of slag it was most likely used to roll hot billet but it was obvious that it had not been in service for a very long time since nothing rusts like that in the desert without sitting there for a very long time 
The only pics I have of it are after it had been pressure washed to remove a 20 mm thick layer of dust by the guy I bought it from






What I was planning on doing with it was to clean it up and polish the rollers then make several patterned dies that could be put on one roller and add a hard rubber wrap to the other one. This way I would have been able to roll whichever pattern a customer chose onto 300 mm aluminum or copper strips to make decorative cladding or trim work this was to be an additional division of the company I was with since I had already set up 6 separate stand alone divisions within the company in the first place I was confident that my marketing staff would have a ball with the new product line.

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## Carlos B

Ha Ha very heavy duty, I'd love to play with a machine like that, my shop isn't big enough tho. Here's a plan for the little girl version.





Its was built for cold rolling but should be able to do small hot rolling as well. The plan is in this book, published by Tab in 1983. Theres also a short write up and material list.

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Philip Davies (Jun 13, 2021)

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## Frank S

Actually the 15 KW should have been 11 KW as you can see in the next to last picture
the thing weight 2 or 3 tons those large side frames were cut from solid 150 mm thick steel plate not fabricated

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## Toolmaker51

> Actually the 15 KW should have been 11 KW as you can see in the next to last picture the thing weight 2 or 3 tons those large side frames were cut from solid 150 mm thick steel plate not fabricated



Well, at that weight you chose to make it a 'rolling, Rolling Mill'...

What happens if Dachshund runs through a rolling mill?......

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## Toolmaker51

While we're on the subject of Shop Truths, Phrases, Tales; and Outright Lies; here's a hijack!
Yes, I'm at the reins of a new search; someplace better at fostering a steady stream of incoming work. Ours is so niched, they may have lost the ability to knock on new doors, let alone email...
I never minded knocking on doors resume-CV in hand, not how it's done these days. Frankly old way terribly labor intensive. 
But volume lowers quality, even with specific search terms. 
Boatloads of job sites use cookies and search parameters, pirate your contact info and history, forwarding crap to your in-box. 
Soooo, I have at 'em. Sometimes it works. 
Unsubscribes fine; HATE the 'Sorry to see you go! phrase so ignorantly applied. I'm bailing that you offer zero.
I submit here an email 'enfilade' to just such an intruder. 
Port Side to the mizzen tops! Standby to repel boarders!

Ms. Williams;

I'm a Toolmaker, Tool Designer, Machinist, Inspector, QA Specialist, Millwright, Welder.
I get emails.
I get emails prompted by search terms at web jobsites.
Within are descriptive, viable links to positions restrained by that search.

I get job emails chock full of baristas, waiters, sales, RN's, and clerks.
That's advertising and marketing; not return-on-search.

I delete or more often, block emails.

Care to guess which?

Your (and I quote) "Interview Request" titling is cheap bait, as no such date is indicated or even alluded to.
That doesn't help your case at all.

My job search is no portal for you to avail as free property, or trespass.
Signed
(ne Toolmaker51)

Despite many addressees, this is directed toward a single operation. Bcc's, regard it as entertainment and maybe a bit of guidance.

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## C-Bag

These job searches fill me with dread. Almost as bad as hearing a friend has been diagnosed with some dreaded disease. 

I hope something worthwhile turns up TM and this torture is short lived.

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## Toolmaker51

> These job searches fill me with dread. Almost as bad as hearing a friend has been diagnosed with some dreaded disease. 
> 
> I hope something worthwhile turns up TM and this torture is short lived.



Disease is dreadful. 

Jobs less so, by far. Those occasional broadsides break up monotony, lessen melancholy, and cause little pain. And if one should come to attention of a hiring body and incense them, I probably don't belong there.

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## Toolmaker51

It's time to interject some levity with a true event. Over yonder, (new posts) there's a discussion on saving mental space, preserving information by written means. It started with Rick Sparber's hack; simply marking a yard sprayer to indicate desired ratio of weed killer to water. Translucent poly container, black felt-tip pen, 2 horizontal lines for volume - one for concentrate, one for dilution. Voilà, even saves rinsing a measuring cup. 
Homemade Spray Concentrate Mark - HomemadeTools.net

Anyway weed killer always brings the following two instances to mind.
Mid 1980's a TV commercial on garden pests, both insects and vegetation, demonstrated what was called a 'duster'. They were hand pumped canisters to distribute powdered chemicals. Probably time-lapse photography, showed the effect on bugs dropping off desirable plants, presumably dead. 
If it would have been animated, they'd have X's over their eyes. LoL. 
Same period of time, some kind of sensitivity overtook outdoor shows. Fish were released, a hunter would take game, all that was shown might be a fluttering duck or deer falling into the grass. Graphic scenes were for movies, and mature TV; but where the goal was recreation and feeding ourselves someone drew a line. Movies had already started posting the _No Animals Were Harmed in the Filming of this Motion Picture_ statement.

Significant other and I watched outdoor shows regularly. Both are interested in nature and it's many facets. The described commercial came on. With all seriousness of a Shakespearean actor, I posed indignant dis-belief the commercial depicts extermination of bugs. Fetching the phone-book, I 'found' the animal preservation or humane association, pretending to call and report what we had seen. One sided conversation of course, but the resident female was conned into it being real. 
After a short time, my 'outrage' was reduced to 'Oh, that's different...', 'We didn't realize...' and of course 'Yes, and thank you so very much...', and I sat back down. 
Hmmph. A minute passes, barely able to conceal the punchline I'd composed. 
She asks now inpatient, 'Well?' 'Wha'd they say?'. 

Oh, they are completely aware of these, even sanction the advertising!
'But what about the bugs?'

That's OK too, they use stunt bugs!

I think the howling lasted 20 minutes. Is anything more fun than spontaneous humor?
Had occasion to talk to her sometime back, 20 years later and still laugh about it. Among other things, that's what friends are for.

Number two. We'd often dine with our best of all friends at their house. Mainly due to them having four children and not as readily mobile, and my house wasn't ever the largest available resort. Both women are fine cooks and enjoyed working together. The males had what amounts to boundless appetites; but my tastes were broader, not gourmet, just a few degrees less conventional. 
Friend's wife caters his preferences, yet still tried new things on him. Salads were not a good proving ground. Sliced tomato, shredded cheese, maybe olives, sunflower seeds but NO exotic greens; iceberg only! Endive, radicchio, chard, even romaine hearts rejected. Nix, nada, no-way Jose. No slender leaves, curly or pointed edges; just wide and pale green.

Well one time his attention was not so intense and he sat to a bowl of mixed greens and little else in the way of ingredients. For whatever reason all the dressings are at my end of the table. 

Hey, Mike, what dressing would you like?

His reply was "Ya got any RoundUp down there?"

Needless to say the laughter endures to this day.

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## Frank S

Ya got any round-up over there? 
My first response would have been sure you want the 5 or 10% or the mega kill flavored. I can visualize what the women present would do at that point. 
First off as soon as Mike asked to pass the round-up his female companion would have dropped the pot roast she had just pulled from the oven. Your companion remembering a recent phone conversation prank would have fell to the floor in gut wrenching laughter she then would have rolled over onto the hot pot roast getting her hair tangled in what would have been a stupendously tastily main entree. This would have brought both of you guys to you feet forgetting that you were seated at the dinner table causing it to be over turned spilling the entire dinner setting all over the floor. bowls of dressings and condiments plus the potato salad and the platter of freshly buttered corn on the cob become weapons of mass disruption The two of you are tripping and slipping on the carnage while your lady is screaming at the top of her lungs I just spent XXXXXX$ on my hair now its ruined.
Along about this time the children wondering what all of the commotion is about jump up from their table spilling their drinks the noise brings the 2 dogs and 3 cats to investigate The Great Dane can not stop and collides with the oven's still open door its weight propels it head long right into the open hot oven causing it to thrash about yelping in pain pulling the stove from its place breaking the gas line which nobody notices. Everyone eventually get to their feet both crying and laughing so hard they can barely believe what has happened when they finally smell gas. this becomes a life and death situation to get all living beings out of the house. As soon as everyone is safe the search ensues for the gas main shut off just at this time the gas reaches the flame of the only candle from the center piece that was not extinguished when spilling to the floor in the dining room. Its a full 15 minutes before the all volunteer fire brigade arrives on scene but by now the house is almost fully consumed in flames the only thing they manage to save is your friend's wife's 1954 corvette which he had only just that morning applied 2 coats of polish.
Later Farmers insurance makes a commercial out of the whole affair the two families percentage of the royalties amounts to millions of Dollars 
and everybody swears they will never have a salad with their meals again.

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## Toolmaker51

Nope, they had a pair of friendly Staffordshire Terriers. If our English Pointer and Springer Spaniel were there, the whole thing would be tidied up proto.
He's a fire sprinkler and backflow man, and lots of extinguishers. And she's not the hair-do type.
But Frank, you have one serious creative writing streak...

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## Toolmaker51

Not so many comments, 'specially cause pix are worth 10,000 words, maybe more.

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## Toolmaker51

Not so many comments, 'specially cause pix are still worth 10,000 words, maybe more.

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## Toolmaker51

* I'll be welding.*

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## Frank S

> Not so many comments, 'specially cause pix are worth 10,000 words, maybe more.



Not sure how they managed to get that rotary kiln stopped before the guy was spit out the other side. Judging by the looks of it I would say that at a minimum it would be a 12 ft diameter kiln if so then it would be at least 400 ft long. An accident like this could only have happened during a shutdown. The guy must have tripped and fell across the drive chain and became entangled in the chain just at the same time the kiln was being jogged But even that hardly makes any sense because the jogging motors are small in comparison to a drive motor and due to the amount of gear reduction required for them to have enough power to set the kiln in motion they can only make it rotate a few inches per minute. Unless someone hit the mains and switched on the drive motor which is in some cases many hundred Horsepower. But that again makes no sense because there would have been lock out tags on the switchgear plus any large kilns that I have ever been around, the main drive motors would not come on line until the kiln was rotating this was to prevent damage to the motors trying to start up 100s and sometimes 1000s of tons from a dead stall. The inrush current on a 20 to 400 HP motor can be astronimical

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## Frank S

> Not so many comments, 'specially cause pix are still worth 10,000 words, maybe more.



That crane suffered from an extreme case of OH S**t 
the driver on the high reach is just raising the rear tires off the ground so a flat can be fixed LOL 
Seen plenty of turtle trucks almost every time is because they were hauling a large boulder that shifted in a turn or they drive across a soft spot

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## Frank S

> * I'll be welding.*



Those carbon arc gouges are the bomb seconded only to a lance for being useful to separate good metal from a crack.However with a lance you generally are interested in only saving 1 part while sacrificing the other. With an arc gouge I can surgically remove almost any factory weld while hardly touching either part the weld is holding together

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Toolmaker51 (Jul 4, 2017)

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## Toolmaker51

Frank, funny that the 'welder' is cutting. I remembered this bumper sticker, especially for the attitude I liked. Couldn't find the specific one, so I went creative. Other pictures I ran across didn't do it for me. The old school helmet and emitted shower sold it. 
Some kind of soapbox mode has taken over, probably due current search for new employer. At the moment, I'm on contract in Reno setting up operations in a plant.

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## Frank S

Setting up plant operations & productivity management, engineering consultant , Be careful that was one of the things that landed me a 10 year gig in Kuwait

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## Toolmaker51

Imagine a curtain fronting a presentation, or veil over a statue. This post will be updated 26 August 2017, a very special anniversary. 
No spoilers! Maybe OK to peek...

50 years ago:
On August 26, 1967 one of New Zealands favorite sons decimated former Land Speed Record for displacements under 1000cc at Bonneville Salt Flats, Utah, USA.
68 year old Burt Munro, of Invercargill, astride his 1920 750cc Indian Scout, timed (averaged of two) pass was 183.586 MPH, or 295.453 KPH. Better calculations corrected it later at 184.087, or 296.259 KPH. The unofficial top speed was 205.67 MPH, equaling 330.993 KPH.
His modifications and engineering savvy raised the motorcycles advertised top speed nearly 130mph over stock. It is worth noting he bought the Indian new and commenced steady experimentation.

Bystander: [punning on "State of the Art" to describe Burt's 1920 Indian Scout motorbike] Straight out of the Ark. 
Burt Munro: Don't be so cheeky. 

His feats are documented in Offerings to the God of Speed by Roger Donaldson 1971; and theatrically by Donaldson in 2006, starring none other than Sir Anthony Hopkins. Interestingly, Hopkins declares this, The Worlds Fastest Indian, his favorite of all roles. 
I recommend any persons who love ...things that roll and go, make definite efforts to watch a copy uninterrupted. 
Not only for entertainment, but admiration of those singular persons that grasp what many would say is beyond reach. 
Im certain riders among us will watch over and over again.

And the most stunning revelation of all, 50 years later, Munros record still stands.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burt_Munro

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## Frank S

Curiosity and anticipation building Just like waking one morning to see a new delicately wrapped package under the tree

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## Toolmaker51

...by none other than the imaginative Mr. John Fogerty. 
Not to mention greatest perspective and illustration of an age-old issue. Females, but we love them none the less, and owe more than we can ever re-pay. Plus Civilization and Gravity, important too!

"Honey Do"

[Chorus:]
Honey do this
Honey do that
Work all day in The Honey Do Patch
Woman oh woman
What's a-wrong with you
I can't get away from The Honey Do

Well way back in history
About a half million years
Back in the cradle of civilized fear
Saturday morning the cave man's wife
First spoke the words to make a grown man cry

[Chorus]

Well the weekend's here
And it's time to relax
Kick up my feet in the shade out back
But i must-a been thinking
About some other guy
'cause here comes The Warden
With a look in her eye

[Chorus]

Well I dreamed I died
And went up to heaven
No more weedin', mashin' and shovelin'
I'm standing in line at the old Pearly Gates
Up steps the woman
And hands me a rake

[Chorus]

What's that?
Yes dear
Alright honey

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## Frank S

Absolutely, Even as good as mine has been I sometimes think there ought to be a 1 day bounty or a special tag on my hunting license

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## Toolmaker51

In reference to post on decorating living spaces with machine components.
Leave us imagine most of the outlay is by bean-counters, eager for material to BE the Jones'es, not merely keep up with them.
http://www.homemadetools.net/forum/i...os-video-63061

I started buying tooling in the early 70's. Indexers, collets, toolposts and holders, rotary tables...knowing I'll remain in the trade forever. Observed, but did not purchase items that required specific mates; like lathe chucks. While cam pin (D) spindles were already my favorite, cash and space for a lathe was years off; who knew, I might fall for an A mount or long taple spindle. As it turns out, NOT!
Over the years and every shop I worked, naturally became attached to particular tooling through setup and using machines that I fit. 
Not a typo, equipment is something you fit, not other way round. And I fit them ALL. 
Ran 48" Monarchs. 30' Gray Planers. 30" Shapers. 144" Niles VTL, Lucas HBM, all kinds of K&T/ P&W/ and Cincinnati's, monstrous radial and box column drills, tiny (#1 or 2's) horizontal mills, 6' surface grinders, 60ish Blanchard's...then came demise of US & continental machine tools.
We've all heard the reasoning, excuses, and explanations. NEVER the justification. "We want a service economy; sure we'll retrain you. Trust us."
Disliked Asian imports very soon, well before the general public even barely aware their influx. 
I'm not a big guy, but if _I_ can't shift levers, turn handwheels, or avoid general knucklebusting on poorly designed controls, something is wrong. My spread little finger to thumb is just over 8"; elsewhere Frank S pictures his, over 10"! 
So despite years of experience it continues. Last employer had mostly Asian machine tools; plus a Leblond and two Clausing lathes. Exclusive to those three, never an issue, even on fast-paced efforts. The Asians? Different story, shift lever tips that contact each other, insufficient clearance for palm or fingers. How is a 5" lever correct when a Monarch is closer to 10"? Maybe cause innards are diminutive too? Chip guards obscuring decent grip angle on carriage wheel, usually too small a diameter for leverage or finite control. Short, small diameter handles on tailstock wheels, unreliable pressed fits that loosen. Casting flash, small corner radii, pointy mill crank handles, everything necessary pared a shade under acceptable, or mere comfort, or undisturbed work pleasure. 
Don't know who to throttle first; price point marketing accountants or inconsiderate designers.

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## Frank S

I think that a lot of the early Asian machines were patterned after Eastern European machines excepting of course that some were from US manufactures who moved their operations off shore. One of the reasons for compactness, smaller handles was an emerging market place in far Eastern Asian countries where the average operator may not be much over 5 ft 2" in height with very small hands and diminished reach many not over 4' 10" in height. Machines such as a Warner & Swasey, Bullard, and Cincinnati all had controls positioned out of their reach or had such a long throw they could not comfortably preposition them.
One of my peeves is a lathe with 2 3 or even 4 separate functions all rotating a round a single axis, it becomes like trying to set the volume speaker balance and tune in a radio station from a single large knob with a smaller knob in the middle while having a 3rd butterfly shaped one behind the large one. 
Western Europe machines can be blamed for small controls as well . I had a 19 by 60" Greomematic 'spelling' that only had short little 3 inch levers also 2 on the same axis 2 of these were even located in the basement of the machine very easy to be kicked out of position .
Of al the lathes I have ever operated I have to say my old W&S #5 turret fit the best. with it's 10 and 18" levers and twin 20" ships wheels for rotating the turrets

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## Toolmaker51

It's struck me before, but your answer confirms it.
Copies, even perfect, in no way indicate functional comprehension. Such as what appear insignificant details, like positive detents. 
And after running any of the bigger turret lathes all damn day long, wasn't really any tougher than equal time putzing some little Bridgeport. 
But one had a chip bed to prove real accomplishment. IYKWIM.

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## Toolmaker51

Sometimes Mom is right, sometimes no one is...

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## Toolmaker51

Thanks to the web, job applicants are rarely appraised on how they present themselves physically, as in a sit-down interview. 
You now are subject first to one or more invisible screenings, often conducted by a third party. It may establish contact to begin pursuit of you as a candidate, subject to more screenings. Point is, a lot of cost is involved before you even know they are looking your way...It would be interesting for a knowledgeable party to document how, in a widespread digital environment, less time is available, but more is spent to accomplish quite a simple evolution.

A professionally formatted resume might impact decisions as to who get short-listed in white collar positions. 
I can tell you the same does not hold for work in the trades. Thursday afternoon, a new email proclaims (as become virtually a practice) "We subscribe to so & so job posting site. We found your resume and feel you are a perfect candidate for a position in our organization and wish to discuss...blah, blah, blah."
Underlined below are terms filtered by their match programing that correspond with my resume. An exact copy/ paste, opening sentence is on job duties. They want a hot-stamp operator, and urge I forward this to qualified associates too!
Job Purpose and Duties:
- Perform a complete set-up of press in an efficient manner, which may include: identifying and loading correct stock, setting correct paper path and stretch, mounting plates, die set registration, making appropriate adjustments to the ink and water levels, assuring accurate single-color register and setting up any attribute functions, e.g. perforations, number, file holes, thermo unit, etc.
I phoned desk of Ms. K, feinting serious interest in the position. I let her perform usual spiel, noting especially repeated emphasis on the word "machines", she went on a good 6-7 minutes. Then I took over.
"Where in MY resume does the word 'operator' appear, Ms. K.? Tell me how you've mangled an interpretation of Toolmaker with 45 years experience, links to your hot stamp operator? I've a better idea, let me tell you". I proceeded, by directing the underlined terms to context of the resume, which could not be more divergent; mounting they equated with tryout presses, die set with die-maker, register with a program to conduct inventory work, and file(s) appears here and there referencing PC's, the inventory project and a serialization data improvement. "Hot stamp operator, indeed". "You mean sir, you AREN"T interested in the position?"
"Now, I'd like to speak with your manager". For an hour I quizzed her now (a Ms. C.) "how a company exists misdirecting opportunities for clients with positions that need filling?"
"What costs do you absorb when a high percentage of those opportunities are ignored by persons who wouldn't consider a position?" "How many levels of supervision exist at _________ Int'l recruiting?" 
She related there are "many". "Are they paid?". She laughed, "well, certainly!"
"And not one is aware this practice defeats an unknown percentage of work ___________Int'l performs each day?" "Seems inadequacy is a running trait at ___________Int'l., can I apply?" 
Also asked why I or anyone would forward their lame intrusions. If they can't filter qualifications on their own, it's our job to compensate for the lack of penetration? I'd start with an all new team of IT people.
By now, she is a little dumbfounded, an outsider detects their money is going down the drain, literally. It's no surprise to me, or anyone else in manufacturing, services figured out how to make as much watching paint dry as they do selling it. 
Supervisor finally admitted this conflict of efficiency and service was unknown to her. Surprisingly, she felt 'empowered' to shake up the next Monday staff meeting, that the CEO attends. Love to be a fly on that wall.

To credit both ladies; they were polite and attentive, the first a mere pawn shuffling piles of contact info a program shoves her way. The supervisor, couldn't get her to describe exactly what she did, need or function of so many administrative layers. Aside from maintaining a vacation calendar and handing out memos, WTH it's a call center. Can't imagine what manner of hype fills their mission statement.

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C-Bag (Sep 2, 2017)

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## Frank S

Yep pretty much sums it up

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## C-Bag

The ONLY good thing about import machinery is there is no guilt whatsoever in modifying the bejesus out of them. Now I get you guys who did machining for a living couldn't do that because the stuff belonged to the shop. And in the grand scheme of things it's a sad state of affairs that we are basically buying a poorly conceived kit for many times what the original cost new and didn't need to be modified. But the orbit us hobby guys inhabit is much like the hot rod and custom car community. Where it's about making stuff a direct reflection of your creativity and ability. More time is spent working on it than doing any work with it and that is totally foreign I'm sure to you Frank and TM51. I had no idea of this phenomenon until I bought my 9x20 lathe. 

I spent hours and hours researching, reading forums and cruising CL seeing what was out there and then looking it up. Everything was too expensive as I'd set the cap at $1,000. I know, a paltry amount but I'm not looking to go into biz, just take care of some simple projects and I'd gotten the bug. What I found was a guy who epitomized the world I had no idea existed. He'd bought this lathe as a hobby, bought all this tooling. Found Steve Adair's site on modding the 9x20 and set about trying to trick it out and painting it. Then decided he wanted to dump all his machine stuff and make a homebuilt airplane. So I paid $600 for it with a stand, QC tool rest, 4 jaw, 3 jaw 5" and 3 jaw 3" chucks, follow rest, steady rest, 2 sets of change gears, one metal and one plastic and a bunch of other odds and ends including a huge binder with every mod and manual for the 9x20. Bless his heart I hope the guy pays more attention to building his plane than he did to the details of getting this lathe going. I knew I was in deep yogurt when he asked me if I knew how to weld when we were loading up and I got a good look at the stand. The welds were all bird droppings. He had done a ton of cosmetic work but as I'd find out later he had taken it apart to paint, but didn't know how to adjust or align things much less clean properly. 

After being around this world for a while there are those that their projects are all about making stuff for the lathe and there guys like me who have projects in mind and end up improving and dialing in the equipment as needed. And by the amount of this stuff moving around out there there's a lot of upgrading to bigger and better and finally find the old iron of their dreams. And until I make that jump(if I ever do, I dream of a Logan 12x36) I won't know how truly ergonomically bad my knock off is. But huge on my to do list are larger handles for the cross and compound and new larger dial on the cross.

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## Frank S

ME! Creative? perish the thought. As for modifying my most favorite machine in the whole world for modifying was my old Wanrer& Swasey #5 a massive 4 tons worth of Iron 2 turrets tear it down to the last gear clean and lubricate everything then literally toss it back together set up a dozen tools on it 6 on the cross slide turret 6 in the tail stock set all of the stops chuck up a bar switch it on then spin the huge ship's wheels once in a while to advance the turrets the amount ot special tooling fixtures that could be made for it wasn't even limited to one's imagination because others had already made 1000's of things for them and published most of them .
when it comes to micro lathes or Asian knock offs your correct most don't mind making mods to them to suit their needs partly due to their relativey low initial cost but more due to the individual wanting or needing it to preform tasks it was not made to do because the company had a target market in mind That being to put aa low cost basic machine in the hands of a beginning hobbyist as possible. Think of Henry's model T he made millions of them and put them in the public's driveways by 1915 there was a guy in Colorado who had turned one into front wheel drive and later even made a 4 wheel drive version they were turned into pickup and flat bed delivery trucks even had a 3rd axle added to them 
A logan 12x36 is a good choice I really liked my little South Bend 9 but it was also my first lathe and I was a teenager at the time 
getting a little larger the Homach 15 by 40 is an easy to learn lathe but may take up a lot more room than many folks have with its foot print of 3 ft by 6 ft 
I found that the Harrison 280 Trainer manual CNC was also a great little platform strip off all of the CNC and the cabinetry making it manual only the foot print was reduced to 2 ft by 5 ft 280 mm by 1000mm turning cap. I carried mine partially disassembled in the back of my 2007 trailblazer then in the elevator up to my 3rd floor apartment where I set it up along with my Clarkston tool & cutter grinder and a 30" by 96" work bench a cheap 3" post floor model drill press in a 12 by 12 bed room Drove my wife crazy tinkering around inthere till 2 or 3 in the morning creating things to use at the factory

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## C-Bag

I have many constrictions on my criteria. Price, size, popularity, perceived quality and support. South Bend is like Atlas where they have this huge hobby following and so their price reflects that. Too many times I've seen one where I could buy a comparable lathe with more tooling such as Logan's for a fraction of the price. But it's taken me all this time to know that. I probably would have been happy enough had I bought one of those garage queen Atlas or SB's, but I would have not had any $$$ for tooling and looking back who knows it they weren't worn out? 

Every once in a while I see basket case SB's like a heavy 10 recently. It so reminds me of when I was into murder cycles and there were basket cases all over. Somebody gets it, takes it completely apart and loses steam and it sits. Who knows what's there, what shape it was in and yet these guys want premium price that I could buy a functional tool.

In hindsight I didn't do bad with the 9x20, they are everywhere still even with all their shortcomings and parts are still available through Grizzly at a reasonable price. And it has made it so I had to learn how to fix and adjust it so I knew why there was a problem with its output. I still cruise CL and dream of a nicer machine but so far practicality stays my lust for bigger and better.

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## Frank S

As far a bigger and better I'd love to get my hands on one like TM51's avatar I'm kind of like Tony carlini with the classic cars he chases. Do I need one? NO! Do I want one? YES! but unlike him I have to add one part part to that equation. Can I afford one? NO!
TM51 turned me onto a fine an dI mean really fine looking from the pictures. medium sized radial drill 12" column 4 ft arm $4 MT with the base mounted block table and the side extension base it was probably in the 4000 LB range by the time I could have driven up to get it rented a forklift to load it paid for it and driven home I would only have had about $1200.00 tied up in it That amount sadly at this time is not in the budget unless I planned on cleaning it up painting decaling and flipping itfor about 5 times what I paid for it. My problem is I am not a flipper I get something it's mine forever hopefully Being that it is a radial drill The wife would disown me if I were to buy it with the intent of flipping it anyway She'd find something to do with it even if nothing more than cleaning it every day and switching it on and off just to watch it run.

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## C-Bag

Yeah, I accumulate, not dissapate too. Because of the limited space with no extra storage it's quite a dance. One day there was a guy on CL wanting a table mill and a guy selling a Rockwell mill. So I had worked out with the table mill guy to sell him mine and deliver and in the amount of time it took for that, the Rockwell was gone. Probably just as well. 

That's interesting your wife is so attached to radial drills. I guess there's a job/tool for everybody!

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## Frank S

She keeps telling me that with all of the scrap that I have lying around I should just build me one sized for what I do now not for when she and I had our shop. 
Who knows I might just build a nice little 8" column 3 ft arm 2 Hp #4 MT 4" diameter spindle with an 8" stroke someday I nearly have enough junk to do it anyway

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## Toolmaker51

> [a $1000.00 price cap] So I paid $600 for it with a stand, QC tool rest, 4 jaw, 3 jaw 5" and 3 jaw 3" chucks, follow rest, steady rest, 2 sets of change gears, one metal and one plastic and a bunch of other odds and ends including a huge binder with every mod and manual for the 9x20.



C-Bag and anyone else; that 600 bucks [even if it had been the 1000] teach you more than 15x that would, spent on tuition for a LOT of occupations. Pretty damn good ROI for anyone's ledger.

It isn't my goal to demean Asian imports; and hope it's clear I salute those who pry their way into this avocation. And pry it is. Even those who are paid for it, most will relate their attraction rarely if ever finds a like-minded employer. One party finds the knack for something enjoyable that will feed AND satisfy him; the other so bound by investment, he's nearly boxed into having to continue. 
C-Bag sees the issue precisely. 
One group continually modify for performance, which can be satisfying enough as a project itself. 
One, such as modelers work in reduced scales, that proportionately approach Frank's W&S #5 running 300lb valve stems or castings, in a hundred pound lathe making 4oz engine cases.
Others maintain running condition, generating projects that near the operational envelope, so they modify or tune to preserve the machine.

All are distinct yet completely related learning processes, none far from what occurs commercially. Most large plants have maintenance techs that just work on and re-qualify machine tools. There are more small shops than large; plus while near stagnant in US - Europe is catered by a huge quantity of 'cottage industries'. In many shops, the user is the machine mechanic short of actual rebuilds.

In no way do 3 examples illustrate the breadth or depth how machine tools are utilized, but I am positive every commercial version has a comparable private type. Only sheer project size delineates them; large or small, NO shop [or country] on the planet who can or would run every variety of job. I'd say machining 'hobbyists' are more willing to consider improvements and projects than many full-fledged establishments can. From that stems my aversion of 'hobbyist' as a term - try to live without the inventions of 'hobbyists' in use everyday. 
Getting paid to launch chips isn't the real reason we do. All the Mister's; pushers like Kearney, Trecker, Brown, his buddy Sharpe, that creep Starrett, extravagant and goofy looking ol' Niles, Bullard, Blanchard, all of them got us addicted.
Rat bastards, lol.

That is probably why the avocational side of the community exists " I desire/ need/ or imagine ______________, yet only have ______________ as a resource. How can I accomplish _______________?

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C-Bag (Sep 2, 2017),

Frank S (Sep 2, 2017)

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## C-Bag

Knowing you Frank, it just lacks the drill head itself. And it would be able to take a nuclear hit if any of your posts are any indication  :Smile:

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## Frank S

As usual Tm51 nails it with his comments on no large company / country could make it without the home inventors
and right again be it a huge 120 ft long behemoth of a lathe made with RR rail ways and a concrete bed with a 90 ft long 60 Inch diameter shaft spinning so slow you can read the number written on the side while blowing out 50 lbs of chips a minute or a unimat 3x9 making hair fine cuts on a .500 x 4 inch cylinder spinning 1000 RPM the process is relative the outcome is the same a finished part from raw stock. scale up or scale down just about all if not all special tooling jigs fixtures ETC were the product initially by 1 person with an idea. 
C-bag for the drill head I might even make it powered by a hydraulic motor and a flow compensated pump like a 3 head drill press I made for a screw conveyor company 30 years ago. Or is I decide to make it geared I have several riding mower transmissions laying around just pull the gears make my shafts where needed weld up and machine a housing, much fussing lots of coffee homemade lime sherbert or ginger-ale sherbert punch later I'll have a drill head. it will be the T slot table that will take the most time to make unless I find one in a scrap yard that I can modify

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## C-Bag

I am part of that rare cottage industry here in the US. It was not by design, more by luck and I thank my lucky stars for the folks that contact me from all over the world. It's amazing how it has dragged me along and made me do things I wouldn't have done on my own. Like getting into computers and shortly thereafter the net came along and like a black hole we got pulled into it.

Like the music world, learning machining is all about first getting your feet wet then finding out who you are as you develop. I'm one of those that have the net to thank for being able to research what would fit my needs, then find it then learn how to use it. I really only truly learn by doing. And having a bunch of other folks who want to share their experience and projects is amazing.

I also had to go and figure out just what the heck a radial arm drill was. This seems like an interesting one:WALKER TURNER Radial Arm Drill Press | eBay

After I saw it I realized there was a huge one somebody was trying to get rid of one in Fresno several months ago. If my memory serves me(which it doesn't now like it used to) it was one of those things if you could haul it, you could have it. It was behind a huge building and who knows how big it was.

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## Frank S

If you can haul it you can have it LOL. That is exactly how a company that I owned 10% of acquired a 25,000 lb Taylor forklift Another company had this old huge Taylor forklift just sitting in a corner of their shop it had been years since it had been moved all they wanted was to have it gone. I took a couple of guys with me in my welding rig we jacked it up to allow the beads on the tires to be free then fired up my compressor, got the tires aired up the drive tires were 5 ft tall and 2 ft wide so imagine the size of this thing, it had an extra counter weight welded on the main counter weight the add on was 6 inches thick by 4 ft tall and nearly 4 ft wide. The batteries were dead so I used my 400 amp Hobart diesel welder to jump start it poured 10 gallons of diesel in it, once it started my guys said how are we going to haul it the 40 miles to the shop. I said we're not I'm going to drive it and one of you guys are going to drive my truck. neither of them thought they could drive my truck since it had a 10 speed + a 2 speed transmission I said look it is just like driving a pickup with a 4 speed besides we are only going to be traveling about 10 MPH so you will not have to get out of 4th gear you won't even have to shift it you can start off in 4th if you have to an hour later we had it home. Handiest forklift you could ever imagine Unload whole trailer loads of steel in 2 picks.
I like those you can have it if you can move it things

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## Frank S

this is the drill press that Tm51 told me about 
it is just barely smaller than the one my wife liked so much 
this one has a 12 inch column her's had a 13 inch also her's we call it her's because she went nuclear when someone used it and didn't clean it off afterwards.had a table mounted to the column instead of the block sitting on the base the arm was fixed height at the top of the column.

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## C-Bag

"I like those you can have it if you can move it things"

I'll bet you do. It's in keeping with your tag line. Not many have equipment or the storage you do. 

So did you hide that drill from your wife?

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Paul Jones (Nov 6, 2017)

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## Frank S

No I showed the pictures to her.Her first words were when do we leave then I told her we could go get it but it will wreck our budget then if an emergency came up we would have to tap into other moneys the tap into other moneys statement was all it took because she knows how nearly improbable it is that other moneys get returned because she knows what is is taking to recover from our move after tapping way too deeply into the other moneys department. 
but if it is still there a month from now I see a road trip on the horizon

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## Toolmaker51

> ....it was one of those things if you could haul it, you could have it. It was behind a huge building and who knows how big it was.



Depends on how gol' durn ding dang big the building was....

*click on the pic pals, but stand back*
Sure can't hide it from the wife.....but YOU can successfully hide FROM the wife.
Or hide wife, if you're into that kind of thing.

Speaking of not so diminutive capital equipment
This WAS largest planer in 1908; Bement-Niles (typo I believe s/b Niles-Bennett-Pond).I am certain this not much larger than planer mill at 'our' Long Beach Shipyard, 30 years later, also Niles. Could be very close. Planers by nature, require out-of-proportionately larger footprint and height than other machines; typical of equipment with full length ways, surface grinders, jig-bores, jig-mills. So beside finished size, imagine scale of work to build it. Casting patterns, iron billets, gear cutting, a couple hundred square feet scraping ways and table, cranes, fasteners...and surely received putty and paint.
http://www.machineryscans.com/big%20planer.htm

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## Frank S

I will not let the wife see that picture

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## Frank S

there is a recycle/ scrap yard in Ft Worth that often gets machines in there, the guy who owns the place flat out refuses to break up any machine that might be possibly put back in service. even if only parts of the machine comes in they get put over in an area set aside for machinery I stopped by there once and he had 6 horribly abused old lathes huge chunks knocked out of their ways cracked head stocks missing carriages no tail stocks you get the picture and 1 radial drill press body sans drilling head 18" column at least 10 ft tall the arm was broken off at about 4 maybe 5 ft out, huge 4 ft wide by 8 ft long base about a ft tall with 1" T slots of course he has them priced by the ton I asked him about them. He said there is always someone who will buy them who needs parts or just wants to try and rebuild them.
This was about 3 1/2 years ago I've been in there several times since and they were all gone other machines were in their place but much better condition 
he even had a couple under power those weren't priced by the ton.

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## Toolmaker51

As some know, I've been on the job market a few weeks. Indiscriminate recruiters I call pirates, completely dissolve well-edited resumes, and pilfer contact info. I drilled straight into a supervisor at just such an agency in NY Friday afternoon; imagine her surprise 'hot-stamp operator' wasn't a position of interest. Another nicomguano without any kind of manufacturing vocabulary.........to her 'machine' & 'machines' were all the same thing, verb, noun, adverb or adjective. Along with her comprehension issues, this isn't exactly a job rife with skills; just 'Abilities'. 
Here's a copy/ paste of the main requisite skills. It reads OK except for one glaring what-the-he**?
"_Skills;
Ability to plan work and select proper tools • Ability to compare and accurately determine difference in size, shape, and form of objects • Ability to apply shop mathematics to solve problems • Ability to set-up machines • Ability to correctly and safely use hand tools (both manual and pneumatic) • Ability to read a tape measure in metric and empirical standards • Ability to read effectively from a paper copy • Ability to work within precise limits and/or standards of accuracy • Ability to multi-task • Ability to work well with others • Ability to work in a fast paced environment • Ability to communicate effectively • Ability to follow and understand directions_."

This was supplied to her by another department. What do extra layers cost that should take one? Discovered root to less unemployment; more doing less.

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## Frank S

Skills? "Ability to plan work and select proper tools • Ability to compare and accurately determine difference in size, shape, and form of objects • Ability to apply shop mathematics to solve problems • Ability to set-up machines • Ability to correctly and safely use hand tools (both manual and pneumatic) • Ability to read a tape measure in metric and empirical standards • Ability to read effectively from a paper copy • Ability to work within precise limits and/or standards of accuracy • Ability to multi-task • Ability to work well with others • Ability to work in a fast paced environment • Ability to communicate effectively • Ability to follow and understand directions."
This might have been similar to an add that I would have placed in a classifieds when seeking temp or possibly an apprentice's helpers. 
Now had I been seeking a welder I might have specified Welder wanted must be familiar with AWS D1.1 able to pass WQTP#2 in 3 & 4 g in both SMAW and GMAW on ASTM A514 or some similar qualification depending on the project at hand. 
That is a skill requisite driven ad.

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Toolmaker51 (Sep 7, 2017)

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## Toolmaker51

And since we've not given poor concepts sufficient thrashing of late; here's a corker.

http://time.com/4723114/50-worst-cars-of-all-time/

I think actual Time Magazine article, author Pulitzer Prize winner Dan Neil, was 2007, but can't seem to find a fully illustrated link. If you do, relay it to me and I'll edit this post. 
I swear, most hilarious descriptions of product ever read.

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## Frank S

Dan Neil won the pulitzer price for criticism in 2004. Was a highly opinionated critic who surely was never invited to any antique, vintage, classic, off road, hot rod, o rany other car show where real car guys congregate. there is not 1 car in his list of 50 that I wouldn't mind owning. Many of the ones he cut to the bone have sold at various auctions for as much as 50 to a 100 times their original purchase price. Even the cars he mentioned in the later years with the too small engines have a collectors appeal to them

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## Toolmaker51

Unable to locate where I posted information on HMT.net; leading readers to acquire US Navy manuals. 
A favorite reference; still the 'Machinery Repairman' 3 & 2, (and) 1 & C. Those cover broad scope of topics from hand tools to administration, same progression of responsibilities as entry level Petty Officers to Chief. Some question their abilities; it isn't generally due to lack of facilities, that's for sure. Being connected with 9 different installations, proved it each time.
Well today, I'm looking for solutions to replicate the foot print of an [my] immense horizontal 4B JigMil. Roughly 15' across, and 10' deep, with 19 leveling screw holes in a not-rectangular foot print. It's time to layout floor cuts, to excavate 8" floor for the 4' foundation required to perform best. While pad will be rectangular, placing the bolts [or anchor holes] will be a challenge. Has to be correct, enabling riggers place machine as intended. It may be more effective to drill deep and epoxy long altered J-bolts. Nothing turns up, even close. Society of the internet isn't well geared for terminology of workmen. 

I hate the internet...logical search terms primarily locate advertising instead of directed content; quotes be damned.
BUT did find the US Army equivalent to the Navy manual, they aren't quite clones, and a good thing. I recommend dedicating permanent storage of the address and 300+ PDF pages; thumb, non rewrite disk or print on substantial paper stock for a binder.

It's at http://www.apd.army.mil/epubs/DR_pub...eb/tc9_524.pdf

TC 9-524 FUNDAMENTALS OF MACHINE TOOLS 
OCTOBER 1996 
HEADQUARTERS, DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY 
DISTRIBUTION RESTRICTION: Approved for public release; distribution is unlimited.

I sure do enjoy the internet...always a better reward in wandering than searching. My settings pull 100 returns per page. Costs same either way, right?

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## Frank S

Which model Devlieg 4b do you have 4b-96x60 , 4b-120x60 4b -132x64, ETC.

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## Toolmaker51

My little ol' 4B-48. 
And 48" horizontal ro-tab, 30" vertical ro-tab, 15" tilting ro-tab "E" table, pair of 2 piece uprights, end measuring rods, and 50 taper holders in a tooling cart. A lot of boring cartridges, facemills...all in their own zip code in the building, lol.

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## Frank S

Does it look like this one?

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## Frank S

YOu are correct about the horrible lack of easy access to technical drawings on the web. Most all of the info is there somewhere you just have to get by all of the auto fill search bots and ads I used to have a URL that lead me to every military TM that had ever been published. Any machine which was ever in the DOD inventory has a NSN if that number is known then finding the TM's was a cinch. But first having to search SN's models and build dates can be exasperating. Since the creation of the Alibaba thing it has gotten tougher and tougher to get around their over publicized BS
So far this is what I found

Spindle Diameter 4"
W Axis Travel Spindle Travel (In/Out): 24"
X Axis Travel - Cross Travel: 60"
Y Axis Travel - Vertical Travel: 48"
Z Axis Travel - Table Travel (In/Out): 20"
Spindle Motor: 10 HP
Spindle Speeds: 20 - 1800 RPM
Spindle Taper: #50
Table Size: 60" x 48"
Machine Weight: 30,000 lbs

At this page but no foot print yet
http://2spade.com/DeVlieg4B.html

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Toolmaker51 (Nov 16, 2017)

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## Toolmaker51

I have a manual for 3B model, a bit smaller, but operation is similar. They aren't identical in layout; no footprint there either. Made bookmarks that cover related info, including youtubes like that above.
Thought of making blind transfer punches to mark metal strips, holders for laser rifle/ scope aligner and project on a sheet, a pointed rod with a bubble post level, slotted bars and sliding plugs where there are overhangs...probably wind up using a little of each. 
Occurs to me, to take a series of good overlapping pictures; depicting the various positions to analyze offsite.

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## Frank S

OK here is what I have done when confronted with the need to millwright in a machine for which there was no layout prints
First I would lay out a large square grid around the machine then index the perimeter just like the grid of a map by first marking off smaller grid lines usually in 10 cm increments I try to metrics for this because everything is divisible by 10 this type of a numbering system never fails being left handed my zero point is always lower left this way standing at 1 corner my numbers always get larger going away from me and to the right. or as I term it to the north and to the east. Using 2 long straight edges a framing square a machinist square I can a pair of calipers and round pegs and sometimes a couple o f1 23 blocks or a 90° jig block that exactly fit the holes I can map out on a graph paper where every hole is on the machine that can be reached around its base. For any other holes or if there is electrical or plumbing lines hidden inside or behind other obstructions I have to create datum points which I can translate to my paper graph. 
Hope this helps and that I have not completely confused you by leaving out something.
You may literally have to build a square framework out of some stable materials the same height of the top of the base to be able to get a perfect grid it is very important that if the machine is sitting unlevel or currently on a skid for best results the layout grid should be on the same plane as the top of the base or the bottom of the base if there are varying thicknesses to it

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Paul Jones (Jan 24, 2018),

Philip Davies (Jun 13, 2021)

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## Frank S

time spent now solves problems before they happen

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## Toolmaker51

Good example of what we formerly knew as "outside the box" thinking process. 
So focused on foot print and individual holes, hadn't occurred to think of them more as a pattern with an external datum, and positions within a grid...Exactly as a cartographer might locate features, or navigation from place to place. 
Lets forget I spent years doing the latter! 
A grid, perfectly workable solution; can envision the process. It's not on skids, just plates so riggers can place toe-jacks to finalize position. That means I can slide tape measure underneath and prove an actual 90-90-90-90 rectangle to divide a grid. Each hole is on the same plane, a few have machine hanging over them. Will make 5-6 ferrous pins, flanged that fit holes with minimal clearance. Above the flange is a boss, milled to a face indicating centerline of pin below. The milled face will hook a tape measure, or attract my magnetic tape, the flange adds weight and stability, the holes are cast not drilled. If necessary, bottom could have a small stud for a wing nut and washer. The halved pins allow accurate center-to-center measurements as well.
Sketch depicts concept, not to size scale or even accurate representation of shape.

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Paul Jones (Jan 24, 2018)

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## Frank S

You remember how I described the shape of my box?

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## Toolmaker51

> You remember how I described the shape of my box?



Do I?
More than memorable; shattered previous concept. Instead of a box, A SPHERE, that comprise an infinite number of coordinates.

Yes, Frank S appears to have some ESP or clairvoyant senses; it is a DeVlieg 4B-48 JigMil. I failed to insert all important brand name...JigMil is a model.
And for those interested......... https://www.google.com/search?q=DeVl...nt=firefox-b-1
and......... http://vintagemachinery.org/mfgindex....aspx?id=10762

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## Frank S

Ever since you posted your dilemma of how you were going to get anchor studs in the correct placement I started doing research for what I thought your machine might be until I finally found that video I posted figuring it just might be similar to yours knowing your association older machines and your appreciation for machine fit I deduced that it had to be either the one I thought it was or a Pratt& Whitney which may be one in the same since I have no true comparison But then I thought of Cincinnati or Hauser machines no matter what name I searched for if I entered 4 b all that would come up was Devliag and you still have not confirmed if that is indeed the branded make Then I tried searching for any possible decommissioned department of the Navy machines THen I came up with a 3b that was Army which was also a devlaig. I tried searching for user manuals build specs historical purchase documents and several other avenues a few lead me to pay sites. No interest in digging into those still other searches lead to possible manuals for sale didn't want to buy something just wanted to have a look see.
I still couldn't locate a site that I had used in the past that boosts over 7 million manuals for download some are pay as I remember Tried the UK Machines got a head ache trying to follow that rabbit hole kept getting side tracked 
finally I decided to look to myself to see what I would or have done for similar situations .
That was the easiest search of all since I am not the sharpest tack in the box it took a while for it to dawn on me that hey dummy you've done the exact same thing numerous times on many things just square up a grid then work in instead of out.

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Toolmaker51 (Nov 19, 2017)

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## Toolmaker51

I get surveys. By email. By regular mail. By phone. Not so many are door to door, but I work days, so...not to mention it hovers around 10`F this time of year.
You get surveys too, I'm sure. Everybody's got some bozo composing questions, to compile answers and justify their meaningless position. Auto service, local newspaper, any sort of retailer, its e n d l e s s. Doesn't matter how many do-not-call, do-not-mail lists we're on, it never stops.

I respond to surveys! The recruiter who finds my resume and bombards me with unrelated jobs, with the gall to suggest I forward his probe to associates. NO!
If you can't interpret my resume correctly, you are totally wrong pick to represent me. By default, I'll save my associates the trouble addressing you as a witless toad.

I respond to surveys! The bank wants to know your satisfaction with the "customer experience" on their website. NO!
There was no customer experience; I did all the work for zero compensation, while you laid off another teller...

I respond to surveys! Cancelled homeowners and auto insurance today. Representative was shocked, a 14 year customer. What is it that brought the cancellation?
Because I can. Because you're costing me a double amount in premiums, that bundling is a hoax [nearly extortion], and because a thing called the internet.

And for those queries that pop-up otherwise, my responses usually run along the lines of this....
Sorry, I don't respond to surveys. I also don't think customer service is a science, in need of study. Whatever you don't like at 'Company A' is undoubtedly the same peeve for us.
What customer service really is, whether retailer, public utility, or online seller; _"how much can we trim before they bolt and seek other suppliers?"_
Only function of a survey is testing whether we've noticed...

You should read the broadside fired at the most hated "Bank _ _ [in] America". They never surveyed me again!

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Philip Davies (Jun 13, 2021),

PJs (Jan 16, 2018)

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## Frank S

I'm sorry my responses are limited you must ask the correct question is my response to these phone surveys CLICK is all I ever hear on the other end.

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PJs (Jan 30, 2018)

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## PJs

> I'm sorry my responses are limited you must ask the correct question...



Hilarious Frank, I have added that to my positronic memory banks for future use. James Cromwell was the perfect actor for that. A bit rye, cad and naive at the same time. One of those lines that stick with you and when someone uses it so appropriately it lights a candle in the dark of it all.

To me this pervasive, invasive, bombardment of our attention for our attention, only distracts us from the matters at hand and any regard for productivity or perhaps pursuing some better understanding of morals, ethics and the almighty ethos, logos & pathos. Another movie critter said it best...How Woood! Been reading Marcus Aurelius' Meditations lately but it's tough to be a stoic sometimes, these days.

Perhaps one day, we just might find we...achieve some cultural qualities of the Norlaminian's (E.E. Doc Smith) Or we might just find we get what we need. At least Mick and the gang denied any endorsement...to no avail. Not sure who's winning the sharks or squirrels...but it's a pain in the rectilinear output, four sure and seven years now.

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Frank S (Jan 30, 2018)

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## Frank S

Marcus Aurelius, Not only a practitioner of Stoicism but probably the father of Stoic philosophy even though stoicism was founded by Zeno of Citium. Also Marcus Aurelius was a great military strategist for his time.

PS I don't keep this stuff in my head I only remember certain snipets sometimes the mention of a name will cause me to recall something I think I might have read or learned years ago which usually leads to my digging into the annals of broken electrons to find out if what I thought I knew or thought what I was thinking about was real or imagined in one of my partially lucid wake dreams.

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PJs (Jan 30, 2018)

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## PJs

> Marcus Aurelius, Not only a practitioner of Stoicism but probably the father of Stoic philosophy even though stoicism was founded by Zeno of Citium. Also Marcus Aurelius was a great military strategist for his time.
> 
> PS I don't keep this stuff in my head I only remember certain snipets sometimes the mention of a name will cause me to recall something I think I might have read or learned years ago which usually leads to my digging into the annals of broken electrons to find out if what I thought I knew or thought what I was thinking about was real or imagined in one of my partially lucid wake dreams.



Roger that on Marcus Aurelius and Zeno with "Happiness is a good flow of life." and "Fitting Action"...written 2300 years ago.

LOL Once again your wit is winding my watch of mine...perhaps it will soon strike. I'm going out to find myself now...If I return before I get back, please keep me here.

BTW that is a nice bucket you're building for the Ford.

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## Frank S

PJs you don't hand a book of matches and a fishing pole to a pyromaniac standing in a river holding a pump sprayer filled with gasoline and expect him not to try and cook the fish before they are caught would you?

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PJs (Jan 31, 2018)

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## PJs

> PJs you don't hand a book of matches and a fishing pole to a pyromaniac standing in a river holding a pump sprayer filled with gasoline and expect him not to try and cook the fish before they are caught would you?



I guess Not Frank, nor a good accounting for an unsuspecting bony perch caught in a bait and switch, Pre-flambed and flopped on a plate with an unburned hydrocarbon after taste by some steely eyed fisherman. And so Lao Ztu set off to the western boarders...

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## Frank S

When you are content be yourself don't compare or compete

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## Toolmaker51

In a blatant drive to pull traffic on this thread;
I just viewed the exchange between olderdan and thehomeengineer on the latter's "Poor mans CNC lathe cutting radius on manual lathe" and watched his video. Nice trick and posted a related comment. As usual video closed, offering six related videos. Hmm, OK let's see how these others work. Yeah, I know six related videos are foisted by hits, comments and clickbait, but this was worth it......No need to "Skip Ad" this time!




Commercials and I don't agree ordinarily. I can't think of any purchase initiated or influenced by one. Little I buy EVER had an ad, let alone a commercial. But some are memorable none the less, overshadowing the product or service. Too bad, low cost fun at some marketing-guy's expense.

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PJs (Mar 3, 2018)

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## thehomeengineer

Like it! might get one to cover my beloved Colchester lathe to protect it from any nasty spills that could happen in the workshop lol
The Home Engineer

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## Frank S

As long as you don't have to paint it purple

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## Frank S

She kind of looked like my little sister's first mother-in-law

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## Frank S

in 78 I was working at a company that built foundation drilling rigs. We were gearing up to come out with a new model. It was my job to fit up the frames with fixtures bolted in them to hold them true to dimensions then send them off to be welded out. The floor of the shop sloped 4 feet in 150 ft but right where my tabls was positioned it made dippy doodles uneven in all directions. the guy before me had it blocked up with what ever scrap he could find and it was forever getting jostled out of level. So 1 Saturday I conned the foreman into helping me get the table ready for the new frames that I had to first figure out how to get it dimensionally true then build the removable fixtures and make any adjustments to the layout design to get all of the parts to fit or cut them to fit and make notes on the prints.
I started out leveling the table by taking a fork lift and hauling it to the scrap pile. Jack asked me what I was doing so I told him I was going to make my table level. by shooting 4 1" thick 12by12 plates to the floor with 3/4" 5" long anchor bolts in each. then we used 2" all thread for the jack screws to level it then laid 14" 4 ft long 
H beams across then 3 14" 12 ft long H beams lengthwise then we used a 6 ft by 14 ft sheet of 1 1/2" plate steel for the table top. wiht everything square and level I welded it all together.
Monday morning the big boss and 1 of the drafts men came down to my area to show me the latest revisions to the Prints.
The first thing out of the bosses mouth was who told you, you could change out your table
I just bowed up and said I did, You want to make these new frames and I have to make one perfect before the fixtures can be made and the piece of crap 1/2 plate table that was here was worthless. if you don't like it then bill me for it and when I leave here I will take it with me.
He busted out laughing then said I was wondering how long you were going to put up with the old table. The next day when I got to work I noticed that someone had , had the machinist bring the magnetic Bridgeport milling head and had milled the top flat from end to end side to side. Best fit up table I ever worked off of except for the 10 ton acorn platen table I worked off of at another plant

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PJs (May 8, 2018),

Toolmaker51 (May 7, 2018)

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## PJs

Good story Frank, and on a similar note to yours and what Tuomas was talking about....

In the late 90's I designed and built the 70' AMCA certified wind tunnel for the company at the time. It was powered by a 36kCFM fan and was 7' square with a man door into the main chamber for access to the air straighteners. The issue was the boss wanted to only build 2 sides and a top and let the weight of it rest on the floor for a seal. I designed the panels to be 10 gauge "C" channels as there would be times we would block off 3 of the 4 straighteners and run it full goose and to keep it from oil canning plus make it more modular in build and flexibility in length if need be. Once we got the fan mounted on its own isolation pad and the inlet plenum built I kept eyeballing the floor in this building. I had never liked the idea of this much pressure sitting on the floor and kept having this niggling feeling about this whole idea of floating this on the floor which I knew was not even close to straight in any direction. As I had 13 other balls in the air at the time I hadn't really gone through the all the calcs other than the weight "Should" be enough to keep it down plus I knew the door was going to be tricky to keep sealed on the high pressure side. Went back to the boss several times to argue the points about it but he was adamant about Get it Done as is. As he had fired 2 others prior to me for Not getting it Done, I decided to do an end run. 

I only had 1 tech assistant on that project and got him to round up enough straight 2x4's, as straight as he could find, in shorter lengths ~8-10' so we could build a frame around the area where the wind tunnel would set. Then proceeded to lay out a grid of string over the top on about 6" square and measure the depths at every point and recorded them. I knew it was bad because of the huge gaps we had to truss up when we built the frame. Then dumped all the numbers into Excel and created a topo map that blew my mind. Plotted it out on D size paper, rolled it up and put it on the bosses desk when he wasn't there. A couple of hours later he came into my office with kind of a sheepish grin and said, well what are you going to do about it? I looked him in the eye and said, Well *if* you want me to do this and get it "Certified" (similar to getting a UL/CE, in price too), I would grind the floor as best I could then re-seal it and then seal the bottom with something like this (showed him what I had already worked out) and bolt it to the floor...and all this will take about this long. But I will no longer be rushed to fail and be fired like you did my 2 predecessors...Your Choice...Oh and I would like you to task the AE manager to finish specking out and designing the control system as my other 13 balls are wearing at me right now. Then I just sat there with my own sheepish grin waiting for him to make up his mind. As you all know I can be a bit prickly at times and was probably a bit then with some matter of fact thrown in for good measure...although it was his bus and I got that. There was a bit of fire in his eyes for about 4 seconds then, grinned big and laughed out loud and said, Well get on it. 

The rest of that project went pretty smooth after that and had a big sigh of relief when the AMCA guy came to finish the certification and had real nice things to say to me about the design, particularly the SP sensors I designed for it, which he thought they might include some aspects of it in their future specs. On the fun side, the Tech I was working with was getting his sky diving certs and had been to one of those big fan, floating practice places and ask if I thought the WT had enough giddyup to do that. When we got to the far end of the build we blocked off ~2/3's of the end and he held onto the lip as I cranked the thing slowly up to full tilt, Testing of Course.  :Stick Out Tongue:  Basically it would hold him off the ground a bit and could bounce to horizontal but not stay there...wish now I could have choked it down some more for him as he was a fine young man and a good tech...the grin on his face was worth the Grind...pun intended...messy business, grinding concrete in an enclosed area.

BTW the door worked smooth as glass and was built like a Power Wagon.

 :Hat Tip:  PJ

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Frank S (May 8, 2018),

Toolmaker51 (May 9, 2018)

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## Frank S

PJs great story. It is often very frustrating when the very person who hired you or contracted you a lot of times in my case is often the one who becomes the biggest obstacle of a project when they themselves hired you for your expertise to circumvent any issues with a project before they happen. But it is really gratifying when a company you are with goes from being a minor subcontractor with limited scope of a large project to becoming the general contractor about half way through the construction because your company managers listened to you from the beginning. Insisting that everything your company did was above the set parameters for the project. While the General cut corners hired inexperienced or substandard quality labors then also padded his pockets with graft when buying below standard materials and paid graft to inspectors. throughout the construction of the building when the owner learned of this he canceled everyone's contract but ours. He even Fired the consulting firm I was a member Of the KES (Kuwait engineers society) but not A licensed PE so I scrambled contract a PE out of Germany With his expertise we brought the whole project in at budget even after the previous contractors legitimate bills had been paid

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PJs (May 9, 2018),

Toolmaker51 (May 9, 2018)

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## Toolmaker51

Continued.
Blatant effort to pull traffic toward this thread; with significant identification removed, still applies to more incidences than we'd care for.

Ms. Cxxxx
Last minute deal, but it 'sounds' [underlined, in italics, bold, highlighted and other interesting digital enhancements] as if Lxxx Xxxx will re-cancel & refund immediately. They couldn't offer justification how one policy was cancelled [by me], another enacted billing me for premiums, having jumped their ship for another carrier.
Mortgage company is aware of new Axxx Cxxxx policy effective 5-1-18 already, so that loop is closed.

Interesting that Lxxx Xxxx offer service, apologies and everything else; but no compensation for hour and 10 minutes off clock at work attending tasks most consumers expectation occurs at corporate end. 

I'm still convinced surveys monitor what they can get away with, far more than 'improve customer service'.

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PJs (Jun 6, 2018)

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## Frank S

Insurance companies can be as fickle as a 12 year old's social media texts. their representatives usually independent agents are even more fickle, They try to make you believe you are their VBFF ( very best friends forever) but when they themselves play hide and seek by changing carriers mid stream, forcing you the consumer to spend your time doing their jobs you suddenly become an ex BFF until their bottom line suffers then will often try to offer you a lollipop if you will become their VBFF again

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Philip Davies (Jun 13, 2021),

PJs (Jun 6, 2018),

Toolmaker51 (Jun 7, 2018)

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## Toolmaker51

Shop truths;
Over there [posts initiated about astronauts, brief orbit of loose tools, moon landings] I added a wistful anecdote that quality requires cognizant dedication.

Our dear Marv K posted on how difficult simple physical tasks become in a pressurized suit; dexterity, inhibited range of movement, and near totality of unfamiliar environment, plus - "it's damned difficult to turn off gravity". 

One of my favorite shop jibes for times, such as sockets rolling off a bench, is "Careful! Gravity is really strong right there".

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MeJasonT (Nov 7, 2018)

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## Frank S

> Shop truths;
> Over there [posts initiated about astronauts, brief orbit of loose tools, moon landings] I added a wistful anecdote that quality requires cognizant dedication.
> 
> Our dear Marv K posted on how difficult simple physical tasks become in a pressurized suit; dexterity, inhibited range of movement, and near totality of unfamiliar environment, plus - "it's damned difficult to turn off gravity". 
> 
> One of my favorite shop jibes for times, such as sockets rolling off a bench, is "Careful! Gravity is really strong right there".



But when gravity is briefly interrupted by another invisible force is when disaster can strike. Case n point a logger is felling a tree the tree has a natural lean in the direction he wants it to fall so he cuts the notch to make the hinge appropriately in the proper place Just as he finishes and is ready to drive in the wedge to start the fall a gust of wind blows the tree in the opposite direction

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MeJasonT (Nov 7, 2018)

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## Frank S

Yankee ingenuity is a stereotype of inventiveness, technical solutions to practical problems, "know-how," self-reliance and individual enterprise associated with the Yankees, who originated in New England and developed much of the industrial revolution in the United States after 1800.[1] The stereotype first appeared in the 19th century. As Mitchell Wilson notes, "Yankee ingenuity and Yankee git-up-and-go did not exist in colonial days."[2]

Yankee ingenuity characterizes an attitude of make-do with materials on hand. It is inventive improvisation, adaptation and overcoming of shortages of materials.



From as near as I can tell 
The term 'Yankee ingenuity' originated from the construction of the Erie Canal across rural upstate New York.[citation needed] Work began in 1817. The canal opened October 26, 1825.

The term was common worldwide in the wake of World War II, as American forces employed engineering solutions to military problems. Doug Stewart notes of the jeep: "the spartan, cramped, and unstintingly functional jeep became the ubiquitous World War II four-wheeled personification of Yankee ingenuity and cocky, can-do determination."[3] Today it refers broadly to a typically American pragmatic approach to problem solving instead of traditional methods.

Although this may be where the term was first used. It is my belief that the roots of this dates much further back in history I feel that inventive folks such as Archimedes Da Vinci Galileo had a lot to do with how things developed But if you really want to know how ingenuity became ingrained in modern man's mind set you would have to go back to the discovery of copper, long before the Bronze age

----------

MeJasonT (Nov 7, 2018),

PJs (Jul 19, 2018),

Toolmaker51 (Jul 19, 2018)

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## Toolmaker51

Another day in the 'moderate' midwest...Elections veil deceit of politics with decent government. 

This is broadly publicized, yet I've eliminated names and gender terms, substituting positions occupied, to fend slander or libel attempts. No secret that under fire, unsavory characters need to divert attention from their actions, unto others holding a rightful opinion.

“(incumbent senator) distancing self from the party is gonna help win more votes _than_ saying like: ‘Oh here’s Obama, the former President of the United States, to now speak on my behalf,’” said (campaign staffer #1).

“And they essentially have the same views on everything?” a journalist asked
“*Yeah. People just can’t know that*” (campaign staffer #1).

(incumbent senator) wasn’t happy when the video surfaced earlier this week. Their campaign is demanding that State Attorney General open a fraud investigation into the videos, according with (local newspaper). The claim is that (private campaign investigation team) committed fraud that violated the state’s merchandising practices act.

[investigators secretly filmed audio & visual during interviews conducted as conversations with incumbent and staffers)

'Win' more votes is different than 'Earning' more votes. 
-----------------------Counterpoint----------------------------- 
My resume exceeds the recommended one and a half pages, fully 3x. There is no hype or flowery statements; just verifiable facts. Along with it I supply a full list of references. Potential employers are invited cross check to any degree they feel position warrants. Obviously, to be found incorrect or false, I don't get the job. Some positions require security agreements, a signature affirms statements are accurate, including protecting trade and process information.
Found otherwise they can initiate prosecution for breach of promise.

How is it engineered a politician practices duality without implications? (incumbent senator) campaign demands a FRAUD investigation be commenced, because undercover investigator(s) hid their agenda collecting information damaging that bid for re-election? And notice, quotes from several individuals support what is occurring, recorded in all kinds of social interactions. 

So, if the real agenda was known, whom of them keeps their job? Shouldn't such volunteer actions jeopardize their next applications?

Far back as I recall, coercion wasn't a redeeming quality.

UPDATE. The candidate profiled above, an incumbent no less, failed to retain seat campaigned for. I'm positive my comments above were publicized far and wide enough to facilitate that. 
Or sufficient voters came to same conclusions independently...

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MeJasonT (Nov 7, 2018),

Philip Davies (Jun 13, 2021)

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## Frank S

As a life long agnostic of government and the policies which ensue from failed and over stated agendas I used to think there was truth in one candidate as being the better choice over the other no matter their party affiliation. Heck I might have voted for George McGovern had I registered. The first time I felt compelled to vote was in 1980 being agnostic towards government that is a person who holds neither of two opposing positions as truth. I thought that if I didn't finally voice my opinion one way or the other then the outcome could be con-screwed as my fault for not voting. and at the time I cure couldn't see another 4 years of what we had as being a viable outcome.
As of late one can no longer consider voting for the lessor of two evils as a good choice the way I look at it you have to consider voting for what is working or against what is not working. regardless of how you feel about party affiliation. I looked at what was not working in 2016 versus the real economy and world events of today.
Sure not everything dare I say anything is absolutely perfect but there have been significant improvements across almost all avenues. there fore my views are even if I don't particularly care for one of the candidates in one of the many smaller local or State positions being sought after I find myself having to consider a straight ticket towards the party that I feel is currently striving to help. When I see a party being lock step bent on trying to prevent me or anyone else from expressing my opinion in a public place or even considering that I we have rights to sit in a restaurant and eat in peace without being accosted or harassed even though no mention of politics or any related topic had been brought up in conversation, but rather they I we had been attacked verbally or physically simply for being recognized as as being of the opposing party. Then I feel compelled to at least speak up and try to get folks to do their own research not to listen to propaganda by either party or to be sure the drivel of talking points spewing out the mouths of talking heads like robots programmed to one function.
Love or hate the President deep down no rational thinking individual IMO can deny by en large the USA and indeed the world is showing at least a modicum of improvement in the past 2 years. And should there be a flip to the other side in any branch things will not continue along the path of recovery that we have seen.

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MeJasonT (Nov 7, 2018),

Toolmaker51 (Oct 23, 2018)

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## Frank S

I have formulated the theory that the only difference between retirement and indentured servitude depends on whether or not you are married. secondly whether or not you have a land or a property to keep up. 
I have a friend who, like me is retired my wife calls it retarded I'm not going to enter into a debate over that one.
My friend is single has been so all of his life and believe it or not never learned to cook but that too is another topic. He rents a small mouse in a medium sized town not large enough to be classed as a small city He drove over the road for 40 years until he felt that it was time to pass the gear shift on to a younger generation. He doesn't hunt, doesn't even own a gun not that he is against it he just never had a place to keep one while out on the road. He doesn't fish says he can't swim and won't get in water over ankle deep, maybe a story there about aqua-phobia but I think he is more talk than anything else. the only thing he has to do around his house is to watch the grass grow or try to coach a pecan tree out of the ground. He is not a carpenter by any stretch of anyone's imagination. I taught him how to weld a little about 20 years ago. but there is a huge difference in being able to weld and being able to fabricate something from nothing more than an idea so if he happens to think of something he would like I usually have to build it for him. even though he had his own welding machines plural. After being retired for a few years ha has found himself at a loss watching grass grow or waiting for a pecan to sprout had in his words driven him bonkers. SO he has gone back to driving this time not as an over the road long haul trucker but a passenger van delivering Railroad crews. Not all that much money but at first he said the time on the road was a therapy for him. Now after a few months the lure of the highway is waning which means he is getting tired of it but his prospects of doing nothing again does not sit well for him.
I have told him that what he should do is to is to figure out what it is he would like to do more than anything else then pursue that thought. I know he likes to do light mechanic work and is not all that bad of a mechanic if he really wants to He has a 5000 lb tool chest chock full of most any hand tool or impact wrench he could ever need But busting wrenches again is not something he says he wants to start doing. OK I said you said that you used to work part time in a wood turning shop you like running a wood lathe do that. 
Well I don't have a shop to work out of and it would take a long time to build one.
Any suggestion that I came up with,He would have a counter as to the reason, my thinking of it as an excuse why not tot so this or do that. 
So he asked me why my retirement seemed that I was always too busy to get everything done.
that's easy I said I'm married which by virtue of a single document makes me an indentured servant even if I wasn't married I would still be a slave to something.the animals that need watered and fed every day the place always has something that needs mending or cleaned up or mowed fences to repair because of neighbors live stock or the old house can always use more attention than I have the time tend to it. or there is my shop that I am wanting to get built so I don't have to do my work under a tent or out of a trailer, 
I told him I retired from the established work force only to become so busy that today I cannot for the life of me figure out how I ever had time for a job
Just when I get started in one project and really want tot concentrate on its completion something will interrupt me Like you've been standing on that ladder long enough it is time to take a break. Or the lawnmower wont start come start it for me, or we might need bread in a couple of days so we need ot go to town.
For the past week I have been rebuilding an add on room on the back of the house that I tore down to the studs 3 years ago to get rid of mold that had been there when we got the place It has taken this long to get back to working on it I now have it dried in with the siding back on and the roof in felt the door has been relocated and 2 3 ft by 6 ft windows installed on their sides giving me a 12 ft long window should have been at worst a 2 or possibly 3 day job to do a 12 by 16 room but I still have the trim the soffit and fascia to put on then insulate the inside and either drywall it or sheet it with something else plus the lighting. 
The only thing is now that it is dried in it may be another 2 years before I finish it

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MeJasonT (Nov 7, 2018),

Philip Davies (Jun 13, 2021),

PJs (Nov 7, 2018),

Toolmaker51 (Nov 7, 2018)

----------


## MeJasonT

Frank - Id like to be all colonial and say the ingenuity was transferred from England when you left to make a better life but we have observed and learnt as much as you took with you. As you accurately state the inventiveness of man goes much further back. We may have had machines and tried to computerise them but it was good old Yankee inventiveness that built the world of CNC - I do feel we played a small part as Babbage invented the computer as we know it today (excluding bean counters like Abacus). Our close connection, mainly family and blood line (there are many Irish and Scottish Americans out there, funny few say they are related to English). There were many Europeans who colonised the Americas but they don't appear to have the ingenious streak in them to the extent of the English brethren. What does impress me is the reverse engineering talents of the Chinese but much greater than that is the talent of Russia and the Baltic states. There materials are very poor but they only have to look at something before they go away and produce their own, very much like the guys on this site who use it as inspiration. The Rusky's had a space shuttle and Concorde - they saw one so they built it. The space station must be fun to work in, having worked around some Russian engineering it has a tendency of being very agricultural (American stuff being very big and Brit stuff being more finite and fit for purpose in comparison). I had a little sensation of saying well done lads when I saw the Russian Carrier leave for the Syrian conflict when every one else was saying look at that old smoke puffing thing. Having served in the RN on an old steam queen i appreciate the blood sweat tears and work that go in to simply keeping the bloody ship afloat. The cans of grey liquid we held on-board (ladies make-up is i liked to call it - like lipstick on an old sow) painted on to make the thing look respectable, having great metal fusing properties to keep the rust appearing as though it had magically disappeared. was my ship any better. their academia has come on leaps and bounds in the last two decades i find myself coming across more and more technical papers from Russia and the Baltic states on google searches than i used to. (that's when google searches work, is it me or are they horrendous these days). Its sad that Inventiveness is not encouraged in the workplace to such an extent that the skills are leaving the corporate world - the profit first attitude and using academia as a source of talent instead of real raw talent wont get fixed any time soon - not until they WAKE UP. There is a tendency of confusing qualification with experience, they are definitely two different things. Whats this STEM thing anyways, did we not always teach Science,Technology & Math.
oh i see its a new idea. This should be a good starting point for kicking off the new idea and inventiveness thread.
I watched an Attenborough wildlife program a month or so ago about Gorillas, This one Gorilla had picked up a rang of rocks and sticks which he had chosen to do various tasks (like cracking coconuts), he kept them all gathered together and used the same tool for the same task every time - oh ****, i've seen Planet of the Apes.
its looks like the inventiveness gene has passed to our Primates even though some of us have suspected this for a long time (i've worked with a few neanderthals). perhaps Darwin is a topic for another thread also. Although i hate to admit it the internet has certainly expanded mans education and inventiveness, (man as in species). we are conversing on issues which 50 years ago would certainly never have been discussed at a minion level.

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Frank S (Nov 7, 2018),

PJs (Nov 7, 2018),

Toolmaker51 (Nov 7, 2018)

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## PJs

A friend sent this a little while ago and busted me up...So True



This seemed like a good place to drop it into the forum...just sayin' there is truth, phrases, tales to be told and Humor in it.

PJ

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Toolmaker51 (Dec 3, 2018)

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## Frank S

> A friend sent this a little while ago and busted me up...So True
> 
> 
> 
> This seemed like a good place to drop it into the forum...just sayin' there is truth, phrases, tales to be told and Humor in it.
> 
> PJ



 Looks like the mother didn't even notice

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## PJs

Perhaps she was the one that was in for a refill...if not, definitely time to think about retirement.

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Toolmaker51 (Dec 3, 2018)

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## Toolmaker51

> A friend sent this a little while ago and busted me up...So True
> 
> Attachment 26669
> 
> This seemed like a good place to drop it into the forum...just sayin' there is truth, phrases, tales to be told and Humor in it.
> 
> PJ



Ahhh, a great burden lifted from my funny-bone. Nothing I can create enhances this one any further. 
So far....

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PJs (Dec 3, 2018)

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## Toolmaker51

With enthusiasm, for the dozens of viewers. There's work, and then....

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Frank S (Dec 15, 2018),

PJs (Dec 17, 2018)

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## Frank S

> With enthusiasm, for the dozens of viewers. There's work, and then....



Great find and so true

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Toolmaker51 (Dec 18, 2018)

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## PJs

Man that was Great TM51...Laughed, winced, ducked and tasted something bad and had one abnormally aspirated espresso. A well lived 5 minutes...Excellent!

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Toolmaker51 (Dec 18, 2018)

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## Toolmaker51

So with approval of at least two constituents, I offer in direct connection to that previous with Mr. Rowe. 
Epic, I guarantee you'll applaud. 
Mike Rowe on value of work 


yeah Trump might be a businessman, maybe have a clue. What do you think our man Mike Rowe could do?

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PJs (Dec 24, 2018)

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## Frank S

> So with approval of at least two constituents, I offer in direct connection to that previous with Mr. Rowe. 
> Epic, I guarantee you'll applaud. 
> Mike Rowe on value of work 
> 
> 
> yeah Trump might be a businessman, maybe have a clue. What do you think our man Mike Rowe could do?



Mike Rowe a Baltimore Opera singer turned realist. I watched every episode of his series dirty jobs often thinking to myself no way a professional singer and actor is actually digging in and doing theses things. Then after a few seasons I noticed the realism of the work he was filming It was kind of a you just can't make this stuff up because I had done some of the things he was doing in the segments. 
When in high school every year kids would try their best to win a coveted spot at the Ft. Worth fat Stock show sponsored by the FFA one year I raised a bull calf prospects were really looking good that my calf might get to go to the stock show I had shown it at the county fair and won a blue ribbon but my calf didn't make the cut, no big surprise there was a lot of competition and the calf and I didn't make it that's life he grew into a fine bull anyway and we managed to get a lot of calves from our heifers he serviced.
One of my female friends and her yew and newborn lambs did make it. and she castrated the lambs while at the stock show the same way Mike Rowe had to do. After wards at school someone started calling her bite em off Susie He was a townie and didn't understand and wouldn't have understood no matter what. One day Susan got tired of his stupidity and told him that she was more than willing to demonstrate the process in front of the class and explain the reason this was necessary that the lamb felt very little pain and, if he would be so kind as to volunteer she would prove it to him.
Tommy turned as pale as 2% milk then said no thanks

----------

MeJasonT (Jun 9, 2019),

PJs (Dec 24, 2018),

Toolmaker51 (Dec 25, 2018)

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## PJs

I knew he was philosophical but didn't know how articulate he was. Old Ted and must have missed it along the line or had a CRS moment. Seen a fair amount of his stuff, but this was excellent. Thanks TM51, this was really well said on so many levels.

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Toolmaker51 (Dec 25, 2018)

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## Toolmaker51

re Frank S & PJs, including other attendees of this particular thread. I too, appreciate his presentations and KNEW Mr. Rowe's comments fit here, hand-lapped at finest measurable clearances.
I'm pleased, with all sincerity; to contribute, and respond, participating in an exchange representing untold thousands of hours (years?)worth of experience. It's remarkable totally different backgrounds can align into similar perspectives. The value stretches from backgrounds to viewpoints like a spider's web, suspended from otherwise unconnected Cartesian positions. 
When first initiating Shop Truths, Phrases, Tales; and Outright Lies, I knew it'd be no stretch to create, recall, or stumble across suitable reinforcement illustrating the facet, what I'm certain ties us together. Yet the variety surprises me, never had guessed so many find this kind of collection appeal is rather universal. 
Dead serious or funny, which only appear divergent on the surface, aren't. No question one exists, bolstered by the other. Opposites attract.

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PJs (Dec 26, 2018)

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## Frank S

I especially liked his commentary about the time when he was doing the segment on the deadliest catch. when he asked the Captain OSHA and the captain's reply was osha OCEAN. then the clarification of his job was not to keep them safe but to make them rich. Meaning to me at least that by enlarge safety practices ultimately rest on the shoulders of those actually doing the job. Which also brings to mind something a Drill instructor once said. This hat I am wearing on my head does not mean that I am here to hold your hand or to kiss your skint knees and say soothing words to make it all better My job is to train you with the skills I have learned so you don't skin your knees, and to toughen you up so you can ignore the little scrapes you will get along the way . it is up to you not to fall down in the first place. I'm not your mother consider me as that old Uncle who is only going to be around for a while then leave.
So there was always some mouth in the platoon who would shout out a comment like SO WHEN ARE YOU LEAVING DRILL Sgt? The answer was usually just as soon as you can whip my expletive. PLATOOOONN ATEN' ---SHOOON, NOW drop and give me 50

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PJs (Dec 26, 2018),

Toolmaker51 (Dec 26, 2018)

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## Toolmaker51

> _So there was always some mouth in the platoon_ who would shout out a comment like SO WHEN ARE YOU LEAVING DRILL Sgt? The answer was usually just as soon as you can whip my expletive. PLATOOOONN ATEN' ---SHOOON, NOW drop and give me 50



Yup always someone wise guy, so rewarding for all, with the requisite 'gimme 50'. 
I knew right off being a joker would have to wait... making up ever since!

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PJs (Dec 26, 2018)

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## Frank S

> Yup always someone wise guy, so rewarding for all, with the requisite 'gimme 50'. 
> I knew right off being a joker would have to wait... making up ever since!



I had also heard from my dad to never volunteer for anything.
One very cold dreary almost raining morning in Basic the 1st Sgt addressed the company of 4 platoons. Something that was unusual since usually the senior DI did this.
the 1st SGT asked if anyone could drive a truck. No one replied at first. then a buddy of mine from high school spoke up and pointed to me then said he can 1st SGT. I've seen him drive his grand father's Mack to school a couple of times.
Well this got me singled out and called out. too late to play dumb I thought my bud has just volunteered me for pushing a wheel barrow I thought.
So I was asked if it were true. I answered in the affirmative then I was ordered up front. Top asked if I had a driver's license. So I pulled out my wallet and handed him my chauffeur's license.
Well lookie here we have a guy who can drive anything on wheels. DO You really know how to drive a truck? give me some of your back ground. So I explained a few of the things I had driven and how long I had known how to drive.
Then he told me to go to the orderly room and get a pass then catch the shuttle buss to South Fort and go to the transportation motor pool and have my self checked out. and to return to the Mass hall with a commercial 5 ton cargo truck.
A couple hours later I backed a F700 Ford up to the back of the Mess Hall. I spent the next 6 weeks driving it when ever the mess hall was required to accompany the company on a march or bivouack. But that was not without its consequences I was expected to be super numeracy in every thing My DI hated me because I was exempted from marching in most of our marches.
It was good for something though because when I went to my AIT and subsequent permanent duty stations I already had a DD348 with a 2 page long string of endorsements from the TMP.

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PJs (Dec 27, 2018),

Toolmaker51 (Dec 27, 2018)

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## Toolmaker51

_This post is a work in progress. It fits nicely within parameters, described by title "Shop Truths, Phrases, Tales; and Outright Lies", and reinforced by comments of it's various contributors._

So, first the setup:
I don't have a particular attraction to cable TV "How It's Made". Always disappointed that how it's made turns out more to be "How It's Assembled". I'm sure a large audience more interested in the real tooling behind "How It's Made" items. Applies equally to one-off customs or mass produced. But tonight's feature was US Navy Littoral Combat Vessels...Yeah, I'm an old Navy guy, yet the interest wasn't locked in by the ships. Presentation illustrated importance of aluminum, to commercial aircraft. The vessel concept success needs reduced draft and other weight savings.
Well, the aluminum was highlighted by a very special plane Douglas DC-3 Flagship St. Louis NC21745. I swear, photo of that plane caused me to choke up, and welling in my eyes. Immediately. And my next reaction, that aircraft was born and built without computers, CAD drawings, online catalogs and many of the other 'requirements' of today. There are examples still flying today, some more than eighty years old.

https://dc3dakotahistory.org/dc3-dak...ican-airlines/

Later in same show, they followed design and construction of a electric motored hotwalker for horses. 
That 'designer' started right off in CAD...a merry-go-round for horses.

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PJs (Feb 8, 2019)

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## Frank S

I haven't seen the episode in question but as far as walkers for horses I was building horse walkers out of old truck or car rear ends over 50 years ago no cad needed just weld a support frame together to hold the rear end vertical pull the back cover off and weld the spider gears for a positive drive add an old 4 speed manual transmission put a 14" diameter pulley on the input shaft to a 2" pulley on a jack shaft with a 12" pulley on the other end drive that with a 1/3 to 1/2 Hp electric motor with a 2" pulley. Mount 4 to 6 20 ft long pipes on a wheel mounted on the top axle tie the reigns of a hackamore halter to the ends of the pipe to lead the horses. Put the transmission in low gear and switch on the motor. it would walk the horse at a nice leisurely pace to speed them up a little just change the gears High gear would be a fast trot but too fast for the 40 ft diameter of the merry go round. 
A variation of this was to not weld the spider gears but to hook up a brake line to the brakes on the bottom axle bury the line and run it several feet outside the walking path then with a master cylinder you could control the amount of friction holding the drum disk brakes hadn't come out then the harder the brake peddle was mashed the faster the walker made the horses walk you didn't need the transmission but you did need another jack shaft to get the reduction gearing and the brakes would wear out about every 2 or 3 months of constant use One advantage of using the brakes was if you let all of the pressure off the horses could stop the walker while the motor was still running. you could add a 2nd master cylinder to operate the brakes in the top axle for emergency stop.
If they want to do a how it's made segment come talk to me I can build and show them how things could be and were made long before we had computers.

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Toolmaker51 (Feb 8, 2019)

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## PJs

Nice couple of rabbit holes, TM51! The DC3 article was dear to my heart as my uncle worked for them in Long Beach for a Long time...35-40 years and I've been on one flight in one at an air show and in many of them at air shows...does kind of make you well up. I remember the smell...a real olfactory experience I got back when I read the article.

Yup, we've come a long way since pencil and velum and made leaps and bounds with every step. If you want a mind rattling rabbit hole take a look at software for designing ASIC chips and what they are capable of doing with them. And yet every idea starts in the head and sometimes built on the fly and last just as long, or Longer (think pyramids or Parthenon).

The show is Ok for a lunch time recess to me but they don't say much, only light a candle once in a while.

PJ

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## Toolmaker51

Original text says it all;

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Frank S (Apr 7, 2019)

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## Toolmaker51

Not once; ever seen proper recognition in anyone's place of employment. This would be nice to see, walking in every morning.

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Frank S (Apr 7, 2019)

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## Toolmaker51

Some of us _imagine_ how we got 'here'. 
Better yet, to recall how you started. 
Improving on that, _knowing_ where you want to end up. . .


AMA Motorcycle Museum Hall of Fame | Burt Munro

Timing official, remarking how Burt pulls away already at 90mph "when you opened her up in top gear, you sure left us in the dust. . ."

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Frank S (Apr 7, 2019),

Scotsman Hosie (Apr 11, 2019)

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## Frank S

That video clip was from the movie worlds' fastest Indian Staring Anthony Hopkins as Burt Munro. But the movie surprisingly follows his life long dream pretty well even down to the Officials nearly banning him from making a run our of safety and technical concerns. 
Indian Motorcycles even commissioned to have a one off replica of the famous Indian Scout the builder a guy in Florida fabed the bike for the company. 
Burt cast his own pistons and made all of the other parts to create his dream by hand using scrap materials from other things. 
Hats off to Mr. Munro a true legend in the DIY world.

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Scotsman Hosie (Apr 11, 2019),

Toolmaker51 (Apr 8, 2019)

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## Toolmaker51

In a roundabout [sort of slant drilling into a rabbit hole] search, I found a comment on this youtube video. Appears 'we' are on the same page. 
But this video will be enjoyed by any who feel "How It's Made" hardly tells the story. It's 29 minutes of cast iron porn.




BTW, the best comment is "Who needs industry when you can have call centres!" closely illustrates observations in a large percentage of responses to the video. The lamentations sound particularly British. 
Pleases me no end; believing a community exists that Quality, good Design, carefully specified Materials, and proper Fitting justify Cost; which show in subsequent reselling, willingly pay extra for the honor.

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## Toolmaker51

Contractors make things so difficult, like keeping schedules, sticking to job quotes. . .DIY is the way to go.

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## Frank S

> Contractors make things so difficult, like keeping schedules, sticking to job quotes. . .DIY is the way to go.



Well that was 9 minutes of entertainment. Oh you actually thought I would sit through an obvious spoof in regular time  :ROFL:

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## Frank S

> In a roundabout [sort of slant drilling into a rabbit hole] search, I found a comment on this youtube video. Appears 'we' are on the same page. 
> But this video will be enjoyed by any who feel "How It's Made" hardly tells the story. It's 29 minutes of cast iron porn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW, the best comment is "Who needs industry when you can have call centres!" closely illustrates observations in a large percentage of responses to the video. The lamentations sound particularly British. 
> Pleases me no end; believing a community exists that Quality, good Design, carefully specified Materials, and proper Fitting justify Cost; which show in subsequent reselling, willingly pay extra for the honor.



Woa I need a whole pack of cigarettes after watching that video.

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## MeJasonT

OK bit late in the conversation but with reference to #245 from Toolmaker51 on the Dirty Jobs dude.
In the clip he made a comment regarding Safety First.
I had a very nasty experience the other day which left me reeling with anger and spite for the HSE.
I was putting on a pair of work gloves and got a metal spelk in my hand from the inside of the glove, had i decided not to wear safety gear i would not have injured myself. Thanks to the clip i have now decided to study the wisdom of Aristotle and Plato etc. Safety third makes a lot of sense to me.

Cholchester Lathe clip.
chap casting lathe parts with molten metal - No gloves

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Toolmaker51 (Jun 9, 2019)

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## Toolmaker51

MeJasonT, we conversed frequently, being clearly of like mind. I doubt Mike Rowe's show aired in Europe; but he is all over youtube. He can expound virtue of industry just as quickly jump into muck; and respect those equally. There's really nothing like him. His background is so varied, he can seemingly present facets of 100's of topics without notice. Sure, televised material is edited, but he does the same thing live. 
Best thing about Mr. Rowe, is what we do not like; he won't participate in presidential elections. What a shame. THAT would be a candidate.

My guess on 'spelk' was off. I like to investigate terms, this being HMT.net we [in the middle] are bombarded on 4 sides by all kinds of language, sayings and dialect. I enjoy it guys, keep it coming! This time a webpage detailed the change in English across Britain. quick paste of result; 
Shiver – Once common in Norfolk and Lincolnshire but now replaced with splinter

Sliver – Used in Sussex, Cambridgeshire and Kent but now replaced with splinter

Speel – A regional word used for splinter found Lancashire and Carlisle but now no longer used

Spell – The middle English for splinter, it was still being used across the North of England in the 1950s but has now vanished

Spile – Used instead of splinter in Blackburn and Bolton but now replaced

Spill – Seen in just a few places on the welsh border in the 1950s but now totally vanished

Spool – Used by people in Huddersfield in the 1950s but now replaced by spliter

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MeJasonT (Jul 14, 2019),

Philip Davies (Jun 13, 2021)

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## Frank S

Rather than to further hijack another thread I think this post is more fitting here.
It is a story of my inflamed gallbladder when I was about 19 years old. I was stationed at the 52nd MP Battalion at FT. Sam Houston. I was working in the Motor Pool under the guise of being a mechanic. Well the word mechanic was probably true. I had even done and early reenlistment to get the assignment. Mostly because I had grown weary of constantly attending one advanced training course after another and wanted a break. I felt that nearly 2 solid years of continuous never ending training courses was enough.
Things were going along smoothly in the motor pool we had only 1 tactical vehicle several sedans 3 motorcycles and of course the Provost Marshal a bird col. had his personal helicopter and early Korean war vintage bell 47D1 Which hadn't been flown in 10 years, but that would be another story.
One night while on night dispatch duty I suddenly was struck with a severe stomach pain or so I thought. I called the PMO and requested a patrol to swing by the motor pool. By the time a unit arrived I was doubled up on the floor in pain. One of them helped me to the sedan while the other stayed at the motor pool until a relief dispatcher could arrive. Code to Brook Army Medical center emergency room took less than 2 minutes, but the pain was subsiding by the time we arrived so I walked in on my own and the Staff sgt left to resume his patrol. Short story long, long story short I spent the night there under observation and endured an endless amount of testing and prodding needles stuck in my arms supplied body fluids under went x rays with only moderate regard for possible sterility protection must have been enough 2nd child born 3 years later.
Next morning released, placed on a bland potato soup type diet. On the mostly liquid diet for a week taking their meds I think were nothing but placebo but no proof. Pain not going away just barely tolerable enough to function in a highly limited duty level. Working days at the motor pool since the motor sgt and a couple others were there so not working alone incase another spasm. A call comes in from the PMO MTR sgt. tells me to report to the Provost Marshal post haste, no explanation. GO in and report as ordered the Col says you can drop that Specialist four crap Mister S. you forget I've seen your 201. This just arrived, tapping a folder on his desk, before I send it to the company commander I wanted to know if you are up for what is inside given your gall bladder incident last week. Oh be at ease and have a seat. 
I'm up for it Sir. 
How do you know you don't even know what is in the folder?
Unless I miss my guess it will be orders to some special TDY training course as per usual with the plans the Army has for me for what ever reason.
OK so you are suddenly clairvoyant are you? 
No Sir just simple deduction What else would a folder specifically addressed to me be doing on your desk and not on the company commander's desk be about, if it weren't something that requires your recommendation as well as approval before it is forwarded to the company clerk or the 1st sgt. 
Just then he got a phone call and had to dismiss me saying he would forward the folder to the company clerk for me to get my kit in order and pack my gear.
I Still didn't know what was in the folder or where I was being sent but I knew where ever it was I didn't need a pain in the lower gut stopping me so I rode the Motorcycle back to the motor pool but stopped along the way where a gut truck was selling snacks I bought a dozen jalapeno peppers a bag of chips and a canned coke. KILL or Cure was my thinking. 
I've never had another pain or spasm in my abdomen in all of these years and absolutely consider the hotter the pepper the more it does for your body to prevent or possibly even cure gastrointestinal problems. I went TDY about 2 weeks later for 3 months To Aberdeen Proving grounds Md. and about a year later was sent to Germany where I remained for over 3 years but before going there I must have gone TDY 2 dozen times sometimes as few as 3 days some times a couple of weeks. all of these were very long flights of 6 to 14 hours once over 18 hours but we won't disclose those destinations publicly. 
The above story is true only the wording of the conversations may have altered over the years

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## ranald

> As some know, I've been on the job market a few weeks. Indiscriminate recruiters I call pirates, completely dissolve well-edited resumes, and pilfer contact info. I drilled straight into a supervisor at just such an agency in NY Friday afternoon; imagine her surprise 'hot-stamp operator' wasn't a position of interest. Another nicomguano without any kind of manufacturing vocabulary.........to her 'machine' & 'machines' were all the same thing, verb, noun, adverb or adjective. Along with her comprehension issues, this isn't exactly a job rife with skills; just 'Abilities'. 
> Here's a copy/ paste of the main requisite skills. It reads OK except for one glaring what-the-he**?
> "_Skills;
> Ability to plan work and select proper tools  Ability to compare and accurately determine difference in size, shape, and form of objects  Ability to apply shop mathematics to solve problems  Ability to set-up machines  Ability to correctly and safely use hand tools (both manual and pneumatic)  Ability to read a tape measure in metric and empirical standards  Ability to read effectively from a paper copy  Ability to work within precise limits and/or standards of accuracy  Ability to multi-task  Ability to work well with others  Ability to work in a fast paced environment  Ability to communicate effectively  Ability to follow and understand directions_."
> 
> This was supplied to her by another department. What do extra layers cost that should take one? Discovered root to less unemployment; more doing less.



Those skills were asked of "Cemetery attendants" and grave digger had also needed ability to use a post hole shovel and with C class (MR or HR) truck licence an advantage and open excavator licence also an advantage. LOL

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## Toolmaker51

or expose the whole mess!

as seen by Todd Snider/ Jenni Finlay

Statistician's Blues 

They say 3 percent of the people use 5 to 6 percent of their brain
97 percent use 3 percent and the rest goes down the drain
I'll never know which one I am but I'll bet you my last dime
99 percent think we're 3 percent 100 percent of the time.

64 percent of all the world's statistics are made up right there on the spot
82.4 percent of people believe 'em whether they're accurate statistics or not
I don't know what you believe but I do know there's no doubt
I need another double shot of something 90 proof, I got too much to think about.

Too much to think about
Too much to figure out
Stuck between hope and doubt
It's too much to think about.

They say 92 percent of everything you learned in school was just ******** you'll never need
84 percent of everything you got you bought to satisfy your greed
Because 90 percent of the world's population links possessions to success
Even though 80 percent of the wealthiest 1 percent of the population drinks to an alarming excess
More money, more stress.

It's too much to think about
Too much to figure out
Stuck between hope and doubt
It's too much to think about, pick it now.

84 percent of all statisticians truly hate their jobs
They say the average bank robber lives within say about 20 miles of the bank that he robs
There's this little bank not far from here I've been watching now a while
Lately all I can think abouts how bad I wanna go out in style.

And it's too much to think about
It's too much to figure out
Stuck between hope and doubt
It's too much to think about, that's right
It's too much to think about, amen
It's too much to think about, mm-mm.


[Lyrics from: https:/lyrics.az/todd-snider/near-truths-and-hotel-rooms/statisticians-blues.html]

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Frank S (Jun 22, 2019),

MeJasonT (Jul 14, 2019),

Philip Davies (Jun 13, 2021)

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## Frank S

The perfect world.
At 20 you know everything and really do.
At 30 you have everything and really do
At 40 you've done everything and actually have.
At 50 you've finally figured out you really didn't know everything at 20
At 60 you've paid off everything you had at 30
At 70 you wonder why you did everything in the first place
At 80 you reminisce at all you knew all the things you had and everything you have done 
At 90 you wonder if you ever knew anything had anything or did anything
At 100 none of it matters anymore you can't remember anything you don't have anything and you can't do anything someone does all of that for you and you wonder what 110 will be like

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MeJasonT (Jul 14, 2019)

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## Toolmaker51

I've stolen my previous offer about the Colchester Lathe Plant.
This time it's how every 55 minutes, over a million components exit the Ford Willow Run Plant as a Consolidated-Vultee B-24 Liberator. So most of the post remains true. And as I continue wandering for such treasures, they'll find their way here.



> In a roundabout [sort of slant drilling into a rabbit hole] search, I found a comment on this youtube video. Appears 'we' are on the same page. 
> But this video will be enjoyed by any who feel "How It's Made" hardly tells the story. It's 33 minutes of aluminum porn.

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MeJasonT (Jul 14, 2019)

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## Toolmaker51

Awful damn sure....
Not any document I've written contained 'Accounts Receivable', 'Payable', let alone references to holding other rubber stamp wielding occupations. So when a "HR Manager" initiates a conversation to fill such a position, my benevolent demeanor switches to All Hands: General Quarters!

Typical, Saturday 0941, new junk mail. Contacts redacted for sake of I'm not sure why, formatting reduced to acceptable size.
Stand By to Repel Boarders!

From: Kacper Xxx Xxxxx <xxxxx@uwo.ca>
Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2019 9:53 AM
To: 'AAL'
Cc: info@msn.com
Subject: RED
Can you handle this position account receivables agent for Lee Metal Group, its customers/client in Canada or USA.
Regards,
HR Manager


re: RED [lol it's FRED]

You, an HR Manager?
Really? Or just bought a graduate certificate from Dollar General, maybe .99¢ Store...?

My resume contains absolutely nothing that predicates such would be of interest. Feeble probes indicate skills limited to stealing contact information, definitely not screening viable candidates.
Certainly not effective interpretation of the sort of documents mentioned above.
[Toolmaker51]

There for quite awhile, I'd get propositions to proofread and multiply impact of my resume, with a $300+ fee of course. Always the same pitch, _"Recruiters and HR professionals only give resumes attention a matter of seconds"_ before decision to retain or trash. 
That suits me fine. Those who know what they are looking at have told me, it's the best resume they've ever read. No hype or wordiness, only details that can be confirmed. Liked visualizing putting 300 in the bank every time I heard that.

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MeJasonT (Jul 14, 2019)

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## MeJasonT

> are bombarded on 4 sides by all kinds of language, sayings and dialect. I enjoy it guys, keep it coming! This time a webpage detailed the change in English across Britain. quick paste of result;



I'm impressed with your interest and dedication.
I read with interest the web finds especially the Carlisle one (some 4 miles from my house).
I cant believe spelk is non existent, my partner is from Liverpool (Lancashire) and she uses the word spelk.
Interestingly Speel is to spin a yarn or ditty (talk crap basically) and spool is a bobbin used in mills for fabric production again Lancashire, Yorkshire, Derby and generally the midlands of UK where the Victorian factories made cotton fabric etc. Spell is one i've heard but not used very much - we call little pieces of sea glass found on a beach spells which has two sources a word used by persons in Derby perhaps for a splinter and connotations of witchcraft - The origin being the friend from Derby we were beach combing with when we decided to adopt her word for sea glass. Sea glass being the very small smooth washed pieces of coloured glass found between the high and low water (tide) marks.
I have come across a few weird sayings in my time involving local dialects. One guy came out with (tin tin tin) as in - It ain't in the tin cant remember the origin off hand, think it was welsh? we have a saying in Cumbria "warrist" for what is it. Like you dialects fascinate me however I have so much other stuff to learn and make its not very high on my list of things to do. We have had Mike Rowe's programs televised over here and the man is a genius, our free view television service has at least 5 US channels transmitting so thankfully we do get to watch some good tv occasionally instead of BBC period dramas (period being the the perfect word to describe some of it - or menstruation if you wish to use a non local dialect slang description). Otherwise known as watching paint dry. 
I watched one of Mike's shows where he went into a sewer filtration system to unblock some pumps, it handled all the sewerage for one of your major cities. The item he removed if i remember was the skull of a horse. all this diving 20+ feet fully kitted as a diver in zero vis. Those guys deserve their money, in fact probably more.

We are getting a TV series starting on Tuesday regarding the factories that built the war. I think the first one is of a factory that built US bombers - i get the impression it will make a lot of reference to Henry Fords production lines/methods. The line on the advert was that a plane left the production line every 3 hours? Not watched it yet so trusting my old grey matter hard drive to remember the advert - um challenging.

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Philip Davies (Jun 13, 2021)

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## Frank S

While we are on the subject of English words and sayings 
have a look at this Pare of the reason why so many of us are misunderstood is our words have too many meanings depending on how they are pronounced but pronunciation is difficult to portray in type. Many words in other languages have gender assignments to them depending on how they are vocalized or accented as they are spoken as well 

Click to make larger

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MeJasonT (Jul 16, 2019),

Toolmaker51 (Jul 29, 2019)

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## MeJasonT

I incorrectly had the view as to why we call machines, ships etc "she" based on French having its language constructed on gender. Guess what, I was wrong again.
Some of the objects turned out to be male. The the origin of our language coming from Latin imposed upon us by Constantine and the catholic churches doctoring only to be written off by Henry VIII in his desire to rid himself and the England of Catholics with the language going back to Olde English ( basically a mix of local dialects, Paganism and common tongue). 
Its as difficult for us to learn the European languages as it is for them to learn English.
(Before any Scots get offended, The Country as a whole was globally known as England long before the British isles became re branded as the United Kingdom. so i use the term English to encompass us all, as it is politically correct - same as i use the word man to indicate spices and not to be sexist so get back in your box Mary).

If you have ever converted English in to a foreign language in google and then translate it back you get the impression that the subject of your conversation has been lost somehow. Something on the grounds of I milked the cow where the term milked perhaps has another meaning or gets lost in translation resulting in you doing harm to the poor creature instead. made up but you get my point. Those DIY instructions for self build furniture from Chinese to English are an absolute classic. Translated from English to Chinese and then back to English how may levels or error can be imported into those instructions.

The internet has provided us with a wonderful opportunity to learn languages, i myself can now understand a few words of German, French and even Russian.
who would have thought that an old Doris Day film would become one of the first French words we would learn "Que Sera, Sera" most of us have known it all our lives. Whilst writing this last paragraph i discovered that google is anti French it allows you to type in french without correcting the capital letter how strange and disrespectful is that.

It would be in error if I did not mention my almost identical knowledge of American with that of my native tongue.
I have had many occasions where i have had to correct my international colleagues when they have stated the the English are lazy, why do we not learn other languages, what makes us so special. I correct them by stating the fact that they are forced to learn American not English, Thanks to the Internet and the Bill Gates foundation Inc ( or Micro-soft-in the head). In order to learn from the internet one has to connect to the content and as it was developed in the West (America and England the new non EU continent, hi brothers nice to be acquainted with you) The language of said content was American. If you invent the technology you are not going to use Spanish as the language if you don't speak it just because it and Mandarin are the most spoken languages in the world. The individuals who have made this incorrect assumption have been predominately French who insist the British are arrogant, Pot and kettle springs to mind.
You have many interesting local dialects in the US also need I mention Kentucky where such wonderful deep american saying are used perhaps occasionally mixed with a little hint of Africarns or perhaps even deeper to include some Dutch.

I recently heard a conversation on the radio by Stephen Fry (Actor) where he was asked about punctuation. He happens to be quite a philosopher when it comes to the English language. He mentioned how he gets sucked into pointless discussions about "Freds Fish Shop" and weather it should have a hyphen or not. He stated that he tries to avoid such friends and discussions where they try to involve him in policing language. He said that the world is a wonderful place where people of all backgrounds converse with language which sets us far apart from other spices and shows our true individual expression. He felt that all language should be embraced as its uniqueness was what made it so special.

He also mentioned how rigid the French Language is and how there is a political consensus of maintaining that standard.

I still have not found a suitable replacement for the verb " F*** " it to has gender, he does, it she does it Its f--- etc
to say that those using bad language are un educated is not entirely correct - look we use it as a verb and quite positively construct meaningful sentences from it, it even has gender. i have formed a very well rounded opinion of Scholars over the years and find most themselves to be the most uneducated, i also include managers and politicians in this category. Preferring straight talkers instead.

The humour of Monty Python is written on such play of words, it requires the listener to finish the conversation using their own imagination and is the main reason why other cultures don't share the humour as there life experiences are different to the British culture. A perfect example is "The Office" the guy is a hated stereo type in the UK narcissistic to the core and believes he is gods gift, I'm sorry but the guy they used in the US was simply lame in comparison. I don't know if you found him funny but on a British scale he would be signing on for benefits as a comedian.

i did have pleasure whilst working out in Tunisia to gift a friend of mine a DVD box set of "Father Ted" - which is a comedy based around priests and the church. I do suspect that I may have accidentally started the Muslim rising in Tunis.

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Frank S (Jul 16, 2019),

Toolmaker51 (Jul 17, 2019)

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## MeJasonT

I want to change the subject and go back to lathes and building planes.

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## Toolmaker51

Just a couple decades back, this internet thing really got its steam going. Along with epic sharing of knowledge, whether factual or not, is how a viewpoint can be common to an incredible number of totally unrelated persons. Like most specialties, it has [gasp] a unique expanding vocabulary. Like deprecating 'noob' magnifies and worsens into 'n00b'. 
I guarantee this will cause some to lol, rofl, lmao, and at least one who'll C|N>K. 
TeeHee
Ooops,forgot the link. https://www.ruf.rice.edu/~kemmer/Wor..._internet.html

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MeJasonT (Jul 20, 2019)

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## Toolmaker51

Some of the best movie scripts emulate classic authors. My favorite, Rudyard Kipling, for example The Man Who Would Be King.

Daniel Dravot lectures his Er-Heb recruits while Billy Fish translates....
_Now listen to me, you benighted muckers! We're going to teach you soldiering, The world's noblest profession! When we're done with you, you'll be able to stand up and slaughter your foes like civilized men! But first, you will have to learn to march in step. And do the manual of arms without even having to think! Good soldiers don't think, they just obey! Do you suppose that if a man thought twice, he'd give his life for Queen and Country? Not bloody likely! He wouldn't go near the battlefield! One look at your foolish faces tells me that you're going to be crack troops. Ohhh him there with the five-and-a-half hat size has the makings of a bloody hero!_

Peachy Carnehan to Billy Fish, on Daniel's apparent invincibility....
_Danny's only a man. But he can break wind at both ends simultaneous — which is more, I reckon, than any god can do!_

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## Frank S

Many years ago or I should say more than half a dozen decades ago I began a trek what this trek was or where it might carry me I had no awareness. I wasn't even aware of being on a trek. For years I have told the story of my starting out in the world of labor as a humble beginnings at a blacksmith shop at the tender age of 11. However through the passage of time I realize I actually started much younger than that. Nearly a decade younger as difficult as one's comprehension of a boy as young as 1 or 2 years of age actually being the beginning of their life long career. However this is actually true at least I believe it to be true. That one can be set on a path which would be the path they follow throughout their lives.
These are by no means my own memories that I am about to share but the telling's of my parents and friends of theirs who knew them when I was still in nappies.
You see my mother worked my Grandfather worked my grandmother kept house both theirs and the houses of others. Obviously my dad worked as well. and it was he who took care of me during the day while at his job much of the time since my mother could not care for me at her job far too dangerous to have a baby crawling around at a drycleaners with the chemicals and live steam presses everywhere.
Now you might ask what kind of job my dad had that allowed him to care for an infant Well he was a mechanic not the movie portrayal of a mechanic like Charles Bronson or Jathan Stathan though being a retired gunny sgt he certainly could have qualified as one had he chose to. No he was an automobile and truck mechanic, and what he would do was to make a pallet of an old wool blanket on the floor for me then give me items like carburetors distributors and tools to play with. I am told and I believe a still living Aunt of mine has a few pictures of me playing with my toys. This lasted for several well maybe not several but a few years. I do think that I remember my dad tossing a guy out of his shop because he had drug me off of the blanket or maybe I was old enough at the time by then that I had wandered off the blanket to get some tool that a guy had picked up from it I was probably around 3 ish I guess by then. I'm sure I pretty much had the run of the place but was always told to stay on the blanket to play with the toys OK most of you guys had children's toys to play with mine were car or engine parts and tools. 
Skip forward a couple years And this I do remember. Why do I remember it because it was my first visit to a dentist I had knocked a tooth out and my mouth was bleeding So pop had to carry me to see the big guy wearing a white jacket. while sitting in the chair I was staring at a picture on his wall of an airplane and a man in uniform standing by it.
That's my son and that is the plane that he fly's he said.
Oh I said. I bet I can make one of those. Mind you I'm not yet 5 years old, The dentist just laughed and said that I have to see. I went to the mechanics shop once in a while with my dad and there is no pallet any more but a table and chair for me to work on the carburetors only now I'm taking them apart and putting them back together obviously not the ones pop is going to be re installing on a car. The next day at the shop I grab a pair of snips and some card board and some wire and nails I sat down and cut out what I thought the shape of the DC3 in the picture looked like then bent the cardboard into a cylindrical shape made wings rolled some cardboard to look like the engines wired everything together. By the time my stitches were due to come out I carried that plane with me..
Skip forward 20 odd years After leaving the Army I take the wife and kids on a trip down memory avenue we drive to Austin I show her and my girls the hospital where I am told I was born. my oldest had one of those little Kodak 110 cameras and was snapping away taking pictures of the sights and the capital I told her she should save some of her film because there might be something she really wanted to get a picture of but what to 6 year olds know? Today with the cameras in every phone that can hold a zillion pictures that wouldn't be a problem LOl
anyway we drive by a dentistry. I wonder if that is the same place where I had to go as a kid I asked so on a whim I decided to stop and inquire sure enough it was and there on a wall was a picture of the cardboard plane next to the guy picture in the plane. I asked one of the nurses if the model still existed.
No she said at least she didn't think it did.
My oldest daughter is furious because she had just ran out of film and didn't have another roll. 
Skip forward a few more years I am designing and building a drilling rig while working for a guy he breaks off a bolt on his motorcycle and starts to drill it out I tell him that I can get it out without risking damage to the threads. SO I grab a stinger and a nut then weld the nut to the bolt and remove it. Where did you learn that trick?
at the blacksmith shop I used to work at as a kid about 15 years ago I told him.
Skip forward a few more years I perfected the art of removing broken bolts broke off deep down in the holes while working on cat equipment. I say perfected I must have removed close to a 1000 bolts like that over the years but sometimes I would mount an assembly in a mill and mill out the bolts leaving only the Dutchman (just the threads) 
The day before yesterday my neighbor calls me up before I have finished my first cup of morning coffee.
Frank my brother can you help me out?
I don't know you haven't told me what it is yet. 
I've been 2 days trying to get this bolt out of a hydraulic pump. I've managed to weld out 3 of them with the stud puller rod but 1 I can't get.
I'll be over in a couple minutes. 
Coffee cup in hand I show up at his place a mile away. Yeah I think I can salvage it for you but you have already done a lot of damage to the housing at least you haven't gotten into the o ring seat though so it will still be OK.
His customer is standing there and as we really need this thing as soon as possible if it can be fixed I'm the one who drilled and ground into the housing Billy took out the other 3 bolts for me.
Ok so you are the bad guy here I said.
Yeah and we can't get a new pump for a couple of weeks.
I bring the pump back to my place and set up my mill they have already do so much damage I didn't dare try and weld out the bolt my mill is just tall enough to get the pump under an end mill and only that because I had one that I bought at auction that had been sharpened a few times.
Anyway I get it repaired around dark Billy and he show up early the next morning to pick it up.
then lo and behold Billy calls me again this morning the same guy who I found out is a mechanic for a company has something else with broken bolts in it .
What are they doing with their equipment I asked using them for battering rams Billy just laughs and says I'm not even going to try to get these bolts out Mike has already drilled them and broken off an ezeout and I have to be somewhere else can you or will you take a look at it for him. Yeah tell him to bring it by I'll see what I can do.
2 hours later the bolts are out and Mike is happy I hope next week is not a repeat.

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Toolmaker51 (Sep 7, 2019)

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## Toolmaker51

Epic. Like a good song, it writes a mental video. 
Mine is completely different, no one in my past did work related to the trades. It took interest and energy finding the inbound pathway. But it started with the autobiography on John M. Browning. 
Despite recent disappointments, if going back was possible, I'd do the same. Really put thought into progressing every day, some are just incremental steps. Also learned, in many of our negative personal situations, we're equipped to remedy those on our own.
If not, you've wasted your effort; regardless what seems like success.

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## Toolmaker51

Work or play, nearly the same for me. 
Right now though, I'm trying to branch out. 
Ordered a stretcher-shrinker.
Arrived today.
Turns out, not being a marital aid. . .

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## Frank S

> Work or play, nearly the same for me. 
> Right now though, I'm trying to branch out. 
> Ordered a stretcher-shrinker.
> Arrived today.
> Turns out, not being a marital aid. . .



I suppose one could be used in that fashion but you and the receiving person would have to be heavily into the BDSM scene.
might me more of a divorce aid than marital though

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## Toolmaker51

As marital aid, stretcher-shrinker is a far better facet of imaginative humor. 
Many like to make up goofy phrases, I'm addicted. The payrate is worse than sparse.

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## Toolmaker51

*2020*

Despite being able write "2020" legibly on the Asti cork, I can't get a decent picture. 
None the less HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL. :Martini: 
And may you all laugh at Y2K, twenty more times, minimum! :ROFL:

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## Frank S

here's hoping everyone has a safe and healthy year

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## Toolmaker51

May we digress; this found wandering. Few would search it...

Septic Tank Humor
Septic tanks pumped. Swimming pools filled. Not the same truck.
Do Not Flush: Sanitary Products, Used Diapers, Tissues & Q-Tips, Cotton Balls, Kittens & Puppies, Tiny Humans, Hopes & Dreams.
The grass is always greener over the septic tank. – Erma Bombeck
The only reason your neighbor’s grass is greener is because their septic tank is overflowing.

Naturally, in this business, got to have a truck with proper advertising

Back off! We ain’t hauling milk
We Haul Milk On The Weekends
Caution: Stool Bus
Your Number 2 is Our Number 1!
Number 1 in the Number 2 Business
Thanks for Flushing Our Business Down the Drain
A Flush Beats a Full House
Satisfaction Guaranteed or 110% of your product back
Hauling Political Promises
Back off! We ain't hauling milk.
Yesterday’s Meals On Wheels
You Think Your Job Stinks?
Virginia Pump and Motor Public Stools
Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap
The Turd Burglars
The Turdinator
Dr. Pumper – Septic Surgeons
Surrender The Poo (with Skull and crossbones of course)
Do You Really Want To Do This Yourself?
Money In The Tank
You Dump It… We Pump It!
Pumping Today For A Cleaner Tomorrow
Scratch and Sniff (over the pumping hose valve)

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## Frank S

I had a visitor from these forums today To preserve his anonymity I don't think I will mention his name but he started this thread.
Through the past several years he has provided us with quite a few inciteful and entertaining comments.
I thoughourly enjoyed our visit and he and I will be spending more time sharing tales tomorrow

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## Toolmaker51

> I had a visitor from these forums today To preserve his anonymity I don't think I will mention his name but he started this thread.
> Through the past several years he has provided us with quite a few inciteful and entertaining comments.
> I thoughourly enjoyed our visit and he and I will be spending more time sharing tales tomorrow



What an incredible coincidence! Same week no less, dang near same thing happened to me.
The posts barely represent enormity of of his project.
Lol we had a blast.

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## Toolmaker51

COVID-19 notwithstanding......from my perspective not even a factor.

We all receive calls from the billing office of so-and-so, usually day or two ahead of a due-date, especially when we refuse autopayment options. 
Well yesterday, received such a call, probably not 25 seconds total, discounting 'this is a recorded call.....' blurb. Next day an email, with lame enticement to report on the interaction with representative 'X' appears in junk folder. 
Not one to reject fellow business types [despite immense corporate footprint] hungry for feedback, streamlined the process [avoided canned answers of programmed survey] replied directly to their plea.....-with redaction and emphasis in type underlining.

_From: FxxxO <customerfeedback@fxxxO.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2021 11:01 AM
To: w@hotmail(dot)com
Subject: Requesting your feedback

From FxxxxO

Dear (my name);

You recently visited with one of our representatives at FxxxO, the issuer of your credit card. We’re committed to serving you and your feedback is essential to us in fulfilling that commitment.

Would you please take a minute to complete this brief survey about your experience?

We sincerely appreciate your time._

[here you'd find 'click here for survey' button]
[below that, because haven't talent to generate a poll on their own, utilizing one of numerous poll-generating software offers online]. Gawd forbid true interactions!
We have partnered with InMoment, Inc. to collect your feedback. Clicking the button above will direct you to an InMoment site to complete the survey.

-----------replied with the following, for FREE. used repeatedly, wrote it once, saved to copy paste there on.

"We'd appreciate" is newspeak; translation = 'using your time, tell us valuable marketing info without expectation of compensation'.
Ok, here's mine.....
a) nothing changed customer-facing interactions in past 900 years.
b) I'm surprised that a room stuffed with cubicles of 1-year MBA's is unaware of that.
c) additional consultation is $180 USD, 4 hour minimum.

Respectfully,
[my name aka Toolmaker51]
555-666-7777 mobile

Their email closes with disclaimers and Unsubscribe, nice feature there, used of course. Next page conveys this. 
You have successfully unsubscribed from FxxxO promotional e-mail offers.
Imagine my disappointment -- times up!

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## Toolmaker51

In Marv Klotz's post on *Extending the range of calipers* in Best Made Homemade Tools section, post *29, our WmRMeyers wrote...




> A lot of kids don't get abstract. That is apparently something that develops after the teen years, for most folks. And for decades, that is all they taught in school. I hope they someday learn to actually follow the research on what when and how to teach. I wasn't seeing a great deal of it when I was teaching, and that ended in 2012, finally, though I should have realized it was really done in 2008.



Per his first three sentences. Yikes, what is more liberal than abstract? What could be more abstract than liberal?

It's established the young are liberal, naturally. Just occurred to me that is being taken advantage of, by means of slick presentation, abstract concepts 'seem' fully developed and logical, though errant. No different than propaganda fostering indoctrination. 
Without exposure otherwise, how will they know?

I have a forced association [relative] with a rabid liberal. This person applauds current administration's push, of labeling day care centers as infrastucture. "Oh my yes, they dovetail right in with electrical grid, highways, construction industry and materials, employment..." 
It gets more convoluted, after pointing out infrastructure projects affect the masses; being rather monumental, somewhat freestanding, elemental to first world development.

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## Philip Davies

Quite a journey, this thread. Thanks for some interesting stories. Reading every word has taken half a day. You chaps have very different backgrounds to mine. Going back toTM51’s first post, about the two dufuses and Who, you mentioned “War and Peace” but I found that easier to understand! But what I did understand was fascinating. I came on to the Off-Topic forum because I have a story to relate about management and corporate imaging and wonder whether it is relevant here?

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## Toolmaker51

> Quite a journey, this thread......<Snipped>.......... I came on to the Off-Topic forum because I have a story to relate about management and corporate imaging and wonder whether it is relevant here?



ABSOLUTELY! Post Away, to your heart's content and beyond.

It was initiated because I just knew that old poem wasn't far and wide, leading into related tales. The responses prove the point over and over, and humbly channeled my inner Shakespeare (perhaps Coen Brothers instead?) in subsequent posts. Glad to have named it so, was to be called "To" or "For" "Anyone Who's Drawn A Check"

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Philip Davies (Jun 15, 2021)

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## Philip Davies

Thank you kindly.
This is about corporate imaging.
I walked down the corridor at work one day, and saw that the signs on the office doors had been replaced. It was still “Headmaster”, “Bursar”, “Head of English”, etc.
Nothing wrong with the old labels. It was a re-branding exercise! Unfortunately, since the new signs were smaller and differently proportioned, the shadows of the previous signs remained visible.
Meanwhile, the staff-room, where the management graciously brought distinguished visitors to observe the hoi polloi, retained the original seating, with the ripped upholstery, the greasy 3-piece suites that had been dumped, and the curtains that had remained unwashed since their installation. What an impression that made!
“A foolish people, who lack understanding, who have eyes, but see not...”

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Toolmaker51 (Jun 15, 2021)

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## Toolmaker51

Yup, Phillip, you found the place. 
That kind of window dressing, makes you wonder what conditions get full treatment. Here, past 5-10 years, bigger utilities have bought up local utilities, and some dippy committee renames the entire assemblage, "to reflect the larger customer base" nonsense. Result is a made up word, or one that has no logical connection to the product. Always some s**t about bringing savings to customers too. Can never find a disclosure of monies spent on billboards, new letterheads, uniform changes, relabeling vehicles, webpages, every customer adjusting their bill pay records...and zero about jettisoned materials.
I think the real goal disguises monopolies, past lawsuits and tax irregularities. 

One shop carried their name 56 years, bought up by out of state corporation. Polled us about prospective names. I posted a picture, brass label on a PEXTO pan brake. Underlining their 'Since 1797' claim, and pointing others not made anymore, but name and value remain. 
No one logically changes a winner.

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## Philip Davies

You’re too right! 
What set me off recalling past traumas was hearing that the organisation I work for was proposing a cosmetic re-brand. New shop fronts, new work shirts, whole range of stationery, etc. 
Now, our function is to supply furniture and household goods to those in need. (Sometimes they are not so needy, but mostly they are. In desperate need.) my work, which I have done since my crack up and early retirement, is furniture repair and shopfitting, by which is meant installation of fittings in commercial premises. But I also collect non ferrous metal or dismantle stuff. This makes a muddle, but they do quite well. In the UK, you can no longer turn up at a scrapyard and come away with cash. They send cheques when I bring them the ticket.
So I am straining my fingers, wearing out tools and I doubt that I get them more than 50p an hour. Meanwhile, the staff who sort the bric a brac are unaware that old brass, pewter etc fetches high money and throw tatty objects into the rubbish, to landfill. All they have to do is keep it for the van guys and bring it to me in the warehouse. I have been telling them this for over a decade.
So the argument goes that the shops look a little bit “tired”. 
When they opened their new furniture store, which is actually very presentable to the customers, I partitioned off an office space, reclaiming plasterboard from the alterations. Couldn’t do a ceiling, no money for it. So you have this gloomy interior space where the admin have to sit all day, and WHERE THEY BRING THE INFLUENTIAL PEOPLE , like the mayor and the bishop!
Still it’s all about style, not substance.
Hope you enjoyed this anecdote.
Kind regards
Philip

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Toolmaker51 (Jun 15, 2021)

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## Toolmaker51

I can think of precious few not to appreciate. Oddly enough, here the 'regulars' object to them as well! I know such reinforcement is beneficial, just as airing such mindless activities can do. 
Divisive? 
I hope so, those complaining about it do not understand individualism. 

Meanwhile......last year I tried to buy work uniforms. Pundamnic had slowed any useful production of needed items more than just noticeably. This was playing as I parked in shop lot. Came out with a fraction that I wanted and ready to pay for. Supply and Demand, right? Fired truck up, CD restarted on its own. 
Pick the lyrics, so opportune, playing as I swore at the conditions. 

James McMurtry "We can't make it here"

Lyrics
There's a Vietnam Vet with a cardboard sign
Sitting there by the left turn line
The flag on his wheelchair flapping in the breeze
One leg missing and both hands free
No one?s paying much mind to him
The V.A. budget?s just stretched so thin
And now there's more coming back from the Mideast war
We can't make it here anymore

And that big ol? building was the textile mill
That fed our kids and it paid our bills
But they turned us out and they closed the doors
'Cause we can't make it here anymore

You see those pallets piled up on the loading dock
They're just gonna sit there ?til they rot
?Cause there's nothing to ship, nothing to pack
Just busted concrete and rusted tracks
Empty storefronts around the square
There's a needle in the gutter and glass everywhere
You don't come down here unless you're looking to score
We can't make it here anymore

The bar?s still open but man it?s slow
The tip jar?s light and the register?s low
The bartender don't have much to say
The regular crowd gets thinner each day
Some have maxed out all their credit cards
Some are working two jobs and living in cars
Minimum wage won't pay for a roof, won't pay for a drink
If you gotta have proof just try it yourself Mr. C.E.O.
See how far 5.15 an hour will go
Take a part time job at one your stores
I bet you can't make it here anymore

And there's a high school girl with a bourgeois dream
Just like the pictures in the magazine
She found on the floor of the laundromat
A woman with kids can forget all that
If she comes up pregnant what'll she do
Forget the career and forget about school
Can she live on faith? Live on hope?
High on Jesus or hooked on dope
When it?s way too late to just say no
You can't make it here anymore

Now I'm stocking shirts in the Wal-Mart store
Just like the ones we made before
?Cept this one came from Singapore
I guess we can't make it here anymore

Should I hate a people for the shade of their skin
Or the shape of their eyes or the shape I'm in
Should I hate ?em for having our jobs today
No I hate the men sent the jobs away

I can see them all now, they haunt my dreams
All lily white and squeaky clean
They've never known want, they'll never know need
Their **** don't stink and their kids won't bleed
Their kids won't bleed in their damn little war
And we can't make it here anymore

Will I work for food, will I die for oil
Will kill for power and to us the spoils
The billionaires get to pay less tax
The working poor get to fall through the cracks

So let 'em eat jellybeans let 'em eat cake
Let 'em eat ****, whatever it takes
They can join the Air Force or join the Corps
If they can't make it here anymore

So that's how it is, that's what we got
If the president wants to admit it or not
You can read it in the paper, read it on the wall
Hear it on the wind if you're listening at all
Get out of that limo, look us in the eye

Call us on the cell phone tell us all why
In Dayton Ohio or Portland Maine
Or a cotton gin out on the great high plains
That's done closed down along with the school
And the hospital and the swimming pool

Dust devils dance in the noonday heat
There's rats in the alley and trash in the street
Gang graffiti on a boxcar door
We can't make it here anymore

_Source: LyricFind
Songwriters: James Mcmurtry
We Can't Make It Here lyrics © Kobalt Music Publishing Ltd._

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Philip Davies (Jun 15, 2021)

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## Philip Davies

I appreciate the effort you have gone to with this, my friend. I suppose it is possible to copy & paste to HMT, but my normal method is to copy it out, usually by hand, or 2-fingered typing. Anyway, that’s what i’ll do for the board at work, and someone can find the music.
All good wishes
Philip

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## Toolmaker51

Not been an unpleasant task, building this thread; but it's participation of others making it fly. 
While I'm an incredible copy/ paste-ist, it merely compensates for not being a typist. Hoping bulk of our participants appreciate written details at least equal to rambling video. If some entertainment sneaks in, well and good.
Yes, HMT.net is super user friendly regarding post, bookmark, download, and best feature of all, "Edit Post"; providing urge strikes before timer runs out.

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## Toolmaker51

You get spam, I get spam, we all are subjected to phishing, and endless yet unnamed schemes. 
This however, current reigning World Champion......If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, blind them with bull****, Uncle Samuel [the salesman] would say.
I recommend cool beverage, crunchy snacks, and a bib or supply of projectile absorbent towels. I swear this is a precise copy/ paste, as received.

Good day,

A remote appointment for Pack Steward for ours logistic firm was brought to start. Our biz offers a very glorious wage and educational pack to do thou as a team member of our camaraderie's evolving and highly effectual biz.

We found yours info via the CareerBuilder site 'n' appreciate that UR knowledge could be potentially useful for the community. If only thou are vibrant about our comradeship's suggestion, please, do not hesitate to compose an e-mail to our camaraderie so our community's Human Resource hosts would be informed about you to uncover to you upward post's description.

Money: $ 4,000 per month.

Given offer is for workers which aren't mind to making work from home.
If you may afford to corporally reside at your dwelling from nine AM to 5 PM, ye can receive revenue of wealth. The essence of our partnership's location is to manage with packs. What shall be included into thine core obligations: have lots out of one addresser, repack them following our fellowship's regulations, & to send out parcels to else destination. Ya'll will seem an unimpeachable operation man at above-mentioned suggestion if thou are a just started to be a mother, a undergrad of Internet way of training, retired, unable to work normally outdoors subject, or the man or woman which hates to depart apartment to make operations for money.

Thou shall not be induced to transact with heavyweight consignments. Generally, you'd locate garment or bijou inside boxes. Learning is established without payment from your side. Everything you all require to obtain the work from our firm is a desktop computer, access to the online space, & printer to be able to print bills of parcels. How much money ya'll will be able to earn relies solely on you  the larger ye function, the more thou obtain. Normally, women that simply start off labor for our camaraderie obtain about 1000 dollars per 7 days.

Are ya'll inflamed by our function? Feel free to write our fellowship via electronic mail. Also, think about staying at house from 9.00 to 5 PM is your obligation to be able to take mentioned function (or, mentioned position is not for you, unfortunately).



_No really; all that without salutation or customary sign off_. 
So naturally, compelled to respond, leading off with a thinly disguised 'Oh Hell Yes, my ship has come IN!"

Re: Well-paid job
F. W.
Wed 6/23/2021 7:19 PM
_Really? Do you sense my excitement at such a lucrative offer?
I can already see my first day in the office................_
Teaching you decent English composition, you twit. 
I'd be there already, but must relieve commitment of current task. I'm sending bull**** spam emails, though clearly not the level you've attained.

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## Frank S

:ROFL:  :ROFL:  And to think all along I was under the impression that due to my poorly controlled dyslexia that I was the world's worst wordsmith. I Really got a good laugh out of this one I did for sure. 
The composer of said email reminds me of someone who has learned English as their 2nd or 3rd language with only a mediocre command of the usage or meanings of pronouns, found access to an online Thesaurus containing 17th century colonial mannerisms, not fully comprehending their very dated usage in common everyday language.

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Toolmaker51 (Jun 24, 2021)

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## Toolmaker51

That might be the case, a mixed up jumble of translation, regional terms, and who knows what else. I can't stereotype any clear nationality out of it, there's a lot, but nothing Hispanic. 
Occurred to me while reading [trying to], the Package Manager spam of old is worldwide, meaning whatever language it originated in, been stretched way out of shape many times.
I'm thinking some inventive dipstick ran his Elbownian [a famous Dilbert nationality] version through google translate wringer, plus his own touches, for this work of art

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## Toolmaker51

Can't imagine any comment........

amplifies this.

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## Toolmaker51

Can't imagine any comment.......

amplifies this.

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## WmRMeyers

> I agree completely, However I felt this time to keep the quote a quote, so I kept it original.
> 
> "We, the willing, led by the unknowing, have been doing the impossible, for the ungrateful for so long, with so little, we are now capable of creating anything with nothing."
> 
> -ToolMaker Rob 
> 
> That is the modified version I made and used to use all the time. As a Toolmaker / Engineer it is definitely my favourite quote.
> 
> Brilliant Idea 51, I have since updated my sig to reflect it



The way I heard that one, back when I was a simple jet mechanic, added "...in no time at all." That was nearly 50 years ago, and it was not new then. I'd like to believe that things have changed, but from what I can see, if so, they've changed for the worse. I will not say worst. I don't want to challenge them. 

Bill

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Toolmaker51 (Jul 16, 2021)

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## WmRMeyers

> ...Everybody knows the "why is there always time to do it over, but never to do it right the first time?" We tried to put that up on the walls with other stupid stuff management put up but it somehow always disappeared.



About a year or so before my employment ended, I put up "The beatings will continue until morale improves." on the board in the maintenance shop. It stayed up there for about 6 weeks or so. Management seldom wandered into the office. Might have something to do with that. Was a $4 billion corporation who had just swallowed their next largest competitor.

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## Frank S

A little sign I had on the wall behind my desk read like this " Should the Unknowing, order you the unwilling, to do the impossible for the ungrateful, let me know what they want you to do, and I will show you how to do anything with nothing"
It was meant to be a dig at our sales staff and management while building the moral and confidence of my engineering staff and the workers on the floor.

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Toolmaker51 (Jul 18, 2021)

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## WmRMeyers

> A little sign I had on the wall behind my desk read like this " Should the Unknowing, order you the unwilling, to do the impossible for the ungrateful, let me know what they want you to do, and I will show you how to do anything with nothing"
> It was meant to be a dig at our sales staff and management while building the moral and confidence of my engineering staff and the workers on the floor.



Being retired now, I'm unlikely to need it, but I'm adding it to my aphorisms wall. With attribution. 

Bill

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## Toolmaker51

> A little sign I had on the wall behind my desk read like this " Should the Unknowing, order you the unwilling, to do the impossible for the ungrateful, let me know what they want you to do, and I will show you how to do anything with nothing"
> It was meant to be a dig at our sales staff and management while building the moral and confidence of my engineering staff and the workers on the floor.



Works for me.


PS That might be my shortest post ever. 
Usually I go one one kind of diatribe or another, maybe a Python-esque rant, or soapbox pulpit attempt to.............oooops

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## Toolmaker51

Oooooh Look what the web hath wrought! 
I'm up early this US Labor Day with no thought in mind other than getting the elusive initial setting of brake shoes to new drums. Previous attempts are disappointing. Anyway, opening Google, it's awash with pink-fingered layabouts heaping praise on 'workers' (apparently laborers now a demeaning phrase), gushing praise for what we do...via twitter, facebook, instagram ad infinitum. However, the pictograms depict NONE of the folks toting spud wrenches, shovels, washrags, weld stingers, survey tools, hack saws, or brooms; nor erecting cranes, elbow deep cleaning engine parts, tending crops, conducting forestry, breaking down forest fires...yet spout that tired refrain "_they're fighting for us_". 
********. 
Meanwhile pointing out many are the very same well-wishing ilk who shut down pipeline, construction and other infrastructure projects.

Hmmm. That series of asterisks are not result of my careful typing. I've been canceled? Quantity reflects however exactly those of phrase.
OK! Substitute El Toro PooPoo, aka Mountains of Guano, or the waste ushered away by another unsung infrastructure, our first world sewer system.
Somehow, I'm now even more satisfied.

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## Philip Davies

This reminds me of a sign I saw up in our local hospital. It read:
“What can do the work of ten men?








.....A woman.”
I said to the nurse (female), pointing at the sign: “That’s sexist!”
“It’s true, though,” she replied.
“Look out the window, “ I told her. “How much can you see that was likely erected or maintained by women”.

I do not mean to diminish women’s importance in the least. The role of women in society is at least, if not of greater significance than men’s.

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Toolmaker51 (Sep 7, 2021)

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## Toolmaker51

Most of us will agree, a good portion of the POSITIVE aspects of society very well can be attributed to women. 
Men probably claim the SIGNIFICANT percentage, but a large amount of those haven't advanced society, or turned out productive.

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Philip Davies (Sep 7, 2021)

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## WmRMeyers

> Most of us will agree, a good portion of the POSITIVE aspects of society very well can be attributed to women. 
> Men probably claim the SIGNIFICANT percentage, but a large amount of those haven't advanced society, or turned out productive.



Too True. I made my living for most of the first half of my adult life preparing for war, or participating in war. In a couple of months, I'll have been retired from the US military for as long as I was on active duty. And in all that time, we've still been preparing for, or actively participating in war. I went to war on my 7th wedding anniversary in August, 1990, trying to prevent war from coming to our shores. We failed. If you've seen the video or photos of what CNN called "The Highway of Death" from Kuwait back to Iraq, I helped make that happen. We did manage to keep the Iraqis from invading Saudi Arabia, and to drive them back out of Kuwait, but we did not manage to prevent further problems in that region. Of course, no one else has, either. There is a reason the Middle East is called the Crossroads of War. People have been fighting there since war was waged with bronze weapons, at least. 

I heard this song several years before I enlisted, but it means more to me now than it did then: 



Bill

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## Toolmaker51

Anyone familiar with performer and title knows the gist of that message "........war, what's it good for; absolutely nuthin!".
I always appreciate a musical reference.

We can thank each other for service, I'm retired as well, just under 26 years. 
Out of that now, yet not even half that time given though.

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WmRMeyers (Sep 7, 2021)

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## WmRMeyers

> Anyone familiar with performer and title knows the gist of that message "........war, what's it good for; absolutely nuthin!".
> I always appreciate a musical reference.
> 
> We can thank each other for service, I'm retired as well, just under 26 years. 
> Out of that now, yet not even half that time given though.



Music can help us express things we have a hard time expessing in words of our own. I mostly enjoyed my time in the Air Force, and would have stayed until I dropped if they would have let me, but there were things I didn't like about it, too. Among them, we left Saudi Arabia & the Middle East without actually getting things set up to be peaceful there. I do not know if it's even possible without depopulating the area, nor am I willing to bet even that would work. For some things, simple solutions work quite well, but for others, maybe not.

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Toolmaker51 (Sep 7, 2021)

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## Frank S

I stumbled on to something I wrote years ago Thought I would share.
The other night I dreamed that I died. And this is how I wound up in Hell; by Frank S 
I dont know why but I died and was escorted up a seemingly unending stairway to a reception desk where St Peter was sitting in a long very heavy looking robe. Since I had died while sitting around the house I had on only light clothing and felt a chill coming on. 
The first thing St. Peter asked me was would I like a drink of something. I said a cup of hot strong black coffee would be nice.
He said Im sorry but there is no coffee in Heaven would you like a nice cool drink of water instead?
I grudgingly said OK if that is what you have.
He told me to go over to the well and draw up a bucket full of the purest water in the universe and drink to my fill.
So I dropped the bucket into the well that seemed to be millions of feet deep and hauled it back up and had a drink. OK it was water nothing tasted special to me I dont really like water that much unless it is made into something else.
Then St. Peter summoned me over to a hard wood bench to sit while he went over my life report.
HE said it says here that you are noted for being an engineer and that you even have a PHD in engineering that you have designed many things throughout your life.
I said Yes I have a been blessed with a small amount of abilities in the field of engineering, and have built a few things over the years
St. Peter said your humility is admirable that is a check for you
Frank, it says here that most of your life you couldnt be bothered with attending Church and when you did attend it was more to insure that your children went than anything else. May I ask why, dont you believe in the sanctity of organized religion and the worship of the all Mighty.
I told him I believe in the All Mighty but I do not believe in religion, when asked what religion do you follow I would respond with what religion does The All Mighty follow 
HE then said you only get a half check for that one. 
Then he said now Frank this is an important question it goes along with many of the other things you have done in your life and will determine whether you will spend your life in Heaven at leisure or an eternity in hell destined to work hard throughout all eternity with no praise for your work.
I said OK shoot, I havent had a vacation in a hundred years it seems.
SO he asked me why I believed that most of mankind didnt deserve to occupy space on the Earth and why I was such an advocate for cleansing of the Gene Pool as I had said many times throughout my life, Wasnt All of Gods creatures sacred. Didnt they all deserve to live their lives the way that I had?
I said well it is like this PETE ol boy, from my up take on life a large percentage of the people that have occupied the Earth for the past several thousands of years were born just plain stupid many without even the remotest amount of self intelligence they had to be led around and told what to do they would blindly vote for, and go along with anything that would let someone else have the power to make decisions for them. They would breed like guppies in a pond, to produce more just like them who would grow up to become a further drain on those few that were actually capable of producing anything. Yes I believe that there is only just so much knowledge to go around in the universal pool of intelligence and that most of the problems in the world today is because of the Earth being vastly over populated with ignorantly stupid people many of which are in position of making decisions for others when they themselves do not possess the cognitive ability to produce anything on their own as well. While I might not advocate anyone causing the death of another I do feel that most of the population alive today should have been neutered at birth so that they could not reproduce. 
Well I am truly Sorry that you feel that way Frank because the All Mighty created man to be fruitful and multiply and to venture out throughout the lands He gave them free will to worship him or not to as their choice. Should they follow his few simple guidelines they are promised to spend eternity in Heaven. 
You on the other hand are somewhat of an enigma; actually you are the enigma of all enigmas. You have throughout all of your life praised the Creator of the universe, and have done many good things. But its your lack of repentiveness that leaves me no choice but to tell you that you cannot enter the Kingdom just now do you will have to go to hell, and descend into the deepest depths until you repent.
OK fine just show me to the elevator and I will be on my way, it has been nice talking to you, it is too bloody damn cold here and you dont even have hot coffee to warm a souls spirits, and whats up with that million mile rope on the water bucket anyway?
Frank there is no elevator to Hell you will need to take the stairs.
So off I went descending step after step it seemed like years before I got to hell, once there I was greeted if you call it that by none other than the archangel himself Lucifer or Satin if that is the name you know him by.
He had a puzzled look to that red and deeply rutted face of his, when I arrived.
He said Frank, Frank, Frank! Im so glad to see you. I have heard many things about you from several of your friends that came before you. By the way I must thank you for telling most of them to go to hell over the years many did just that. HA, ha, now you just go right over there I have your computer all set up for you to start your stay with us. You will not like it here I can assure you the air is foul the heat is intense the water to make coffee with is rancid; your computer will break down a lot because it gets too hot.
Lucifer, no offence but for all I care you can kiss my back side Im not doing one damn thing until I get a cup of coffee and a cigarette. As far as the heat well I have lived and spent most of my life in places much hotter than this, Texas, Arizona, Columbia Kuwait Iraq and many more, and hard work wont kill me. Ill make something to clean up enough water so I can enjoy my coffee, and why the hell dont you have an elevator? And that big furnace you got over there could be put to use with a bit of piping to produce a lot of electricity and the byproduct of all that heat will work perfectly for the refrigeration system I am thinking of. And if you dont like it you can go to Hell.
OH God! I always heard you engineer types were non conformist.
Shove it Satin ol boy, Ill do as I damn well please and if you dont like it you can go to hell. Now the first thing I want you to do is clear out all of this rubbish and get me a factory set up I have an eternity of work to get done and send me in a cup of coffee hot and black and no sugar.
So I set into work what would be Hell for most I found relaxing. The first thing I did was design an air- conditioning system and piped it throughout all of the depths of hell. This increased production of cutting brimstone to fuel the furnaces so much that we soon needed conveyors to carry it all. So I built them then I built a huge elevator right up to the surface of the Earth so that all of the souls destined for Hell could arrive quicker that way we could put them right to work. Satin learned how much he liked coffee that I had to design a pump to pump the water down from the surface to keep the coffee pots filled. Life was so busy that I had all but forgotten that I only needed to repent my thoughts of mankind to be allowed to enter Heaven.
One day Satin gets a phone call from God.
Lucifer my evil brother hows life in Hell.
God I cant thank you enough for sending me that engineer, he has built us an elevator and conveyor systems we now have clean water to make our coffee with and he has turned my hell fire into a heat source for the air-conditioning and refrigeration system.
What? You say you have an engineer? You need to send him back hes not supposed to be there I had forgiven him a long time ago for any and all of his transgressions. You can tell him that he was right all along and I have decided that there are too many people on the Earth and that it is high time to thin them out with my promise, so you send him back right now!
Sorry God but you cant have him he has the place running so well that people are dying to get in here.
Lucifer you send Frank back to heaven this instant or I will sue.
God! Do you have a lawyer????????????????? 
Frank S Prof. of theoretical Engineering philosophy

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baja (Apr 26, 2022),

Moby Duck (May 16, 2022),

Philip Davies (Apr 25, 2022),

Toolmaker51 (Apr 25, 2022)

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## Toolmaker51

Terrific story Frank S, visuals and all. After reading and a good laugh, only found one possible error.




> God! Do you have a lawyer????????????????? 
> Frank S Prof. of theoretical Engineering philosophy



I believe the real question is along the line of... "God! HOW did you find a lawyer that dared enter???????????????"

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Frank S (Apr 25, 2022)

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## Frank S

> Terrific story Frank S, visuals and all. After reading and a good laugh, only found one possible error.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe the real question is along the line of... "God! HOW did you find a lawyer that dared enter???????????????"



Yep I doubt that even honest Abe made it in

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## Philip Davies

Here’s a saying, which few toolmakers will have heard, told to me by my friend, Norman Boulton.

“In glue and dust, we place our trust,
If the railways won’t employ us,
The council must!”

Since Norman’s products were on sale in Harrods, I doubt whether he needed to correct his joinery with sawdust and glue, (as I do)

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MeJasonT (Aug 5, 2022)

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## Frank S

I grew up on my Grandpa's farm so I knew him mostly as a farmer, although in actuality he was a retired carpenter/ cabinet maker. He made the prototype cabinet for the first Curtis Mathes console TV stereo system. We had a Mathes fan in our living room that he had made the cabinet it was in Also his name was Mathes. A cousin to them I think but anyway the box fan we had had a lot of intricate inlay in it, I figure he must have done that himself to personalize the fan, but I never knew for sure. One thing I do know though is once while he was making a pair of entry doors for a church I saw him carefully carving a series of very small groves in them then the next time I managed to sneak into his wood working shop the doors had several inscriptions in them which looked like the inlay in the fan he was there rubbing and polishing the doors. Being a young kid my curiosity made me ask him what he was doing. Boy did that turn into an educational lecture. he showed me how he would take a plane and slice off a long curl of soft wood wet it down with very hot water then flatten it out and press it between 2 plates to dry once dried he would carve the designs he wanted then lay them over a project and trace the design into the wood then carve the groves then glue the design into he grooves anywhere there might be an imperfection between the carving and the grove or imperfections in the inlay, he filled it with a powder he made from the dried scraps of the inlay, making the powder in something that looked like an old coffee grinder but to get the grindings to the fine powdery consistency he needed he used a mortar and Pessel like the pharmacist used to make medicines. I don't know what he used as a bonding agent but by the time he had it rubbed in to his satisfaction it was nearly impossible to find the blemish if not impossible.

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MeJasonT (Aug 5, 2022),

Philip Davies (May 16, 2022)

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## Philip Davies

Thanks for this, Frank. I have never tried marquetry, but my friend Norman was very skilled in laying veneers. He has a bookcase bureau veneered in rosewood. Your grandfather was clearly equally as gifted. The description of processing a shaving is especially interesting.

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## Frank S

> Thanks for this, Frank. I have never tried marquetry, but my friend Norman was very skilled in laying veneers. He has a bookcase bureau veneered in rosewood. Your grandfather was clearly equally as gifted. The description of processing a shaving is especially interesting.



Philip you have to remember that was the observations by an 8 year old kid and 60 years ago, somethings stick with you throughout your life but the finer details may not. Since I have never personally tried to duplicate the things I saw him doing I couldn't be certain I have remembered everything in context and probably have not. Sometimes I would watch him for nearly an hour before he would even notice me being there, particularly if I could wedge myself into a good hiding spot.

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Philip Davies (May 18, 2022)

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## Toolmaker51

Veering off into a snowdrift, or herd of snowflakes, IDK.

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Frank S (Aug 4, 2022),

mklotz (Aug 5, 2022),

Philip Davies (Aug 5, 2022)

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## Philip Davies

> Veering off into a snowdrift, or herd of snowflakes, IDK.
> Attachment 43371



If, by snowflakes you refer to those of a sensitive disposition, (like me), you could call them a herd. But there is no real collective noun for snow flakes (putting on my mortar board), just snow. Ive seen flurry used, though. 
Words are my stock in trade, I used to tell students, when they complained about difficult words. But I always tried to signify their meaning with synonyms.
Yesterday, I tried to do internet banking. It would not let me. I phoned them. They said they will post me a leaflet! I said it would be easier to write to head office. The youth found a way to do it, he alleged. He would put me through to another team. Ten minutes silence ensued. I wrote a letter to head office. It took 10 minutes. The call lasted 37 minutes.

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## Frank S

Herd, Flock, Gaggle, Pack, Congress, School, Swarm, Hive, ETC. each of these words are already tightly associated with how we describe several groups or the assemblage of various beings and species. We break down our age groups by classing ourselves with words like Boomers, Xer's, millennials, gen Z, and so forth. When it comes to political persuasions terms like, Left, Right, Moderate, Progressive, Conservative, Liberal, Libertarian, often wind up with secondary descriptive words such as Radical, Socialist, Communist, Ultra, and more. I won't even attempt to understand the latest movement of describing genders with the whole pronoun thing, likewise I will refrain from delving into how people of all races colors creeds and religions often use words to describe persons not of the same volition as they are, Heck, while growing up some kids learned about some of my family's ancestry tagged me as half breed, it made me the cool kid though amongst my peers. For them to actually have a kid in their midst who had some native American blood was to them something of a status symbol. Don't mess with us or the Comanche will stomp your butt. or you can't beat us at this game because the Cherokee knows strategies you've never heard of. While in the Army one of the guys who was in my platoon once called me an Apple, He said I was red on the outside but white on the inside I don't remember why or what brought it up though.
Now when it comes to adding a vernacular to persons we think of as thin skinned, snowflake has become the term often used, to make this plural, the word snowflakes is used, however this seems to be a little under descriptive when portraying the derogative nature in describing a bunch of thin-skinned persons, as not being offensive enough to describe them. I'm sure someone will come up with the appropriate negative integer to tag on the label. Once this happens the word snowflake will become the next descriptive to be stricken from group speak.

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MeJasonT (Aug 5, 2022)

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## MeJasonT

Umm degenerate, i like that word, i use it every day all be it the German word Kuntz as in degenerate artists that were hated by Mr A Hitler esq. The other is Retard, as in to go backwards or slow down. The annoying woke brigade attempting to change our language is going to realise that insults wont stop just because you change language. Bunch of birth givers (technically would mean calling them a bunch of paternal women). Alleged common people using slang and abbreviated words to describe a person or an event does not mean we are ignorant or stupid, they will certainly find out the hard way that we are in fact educated. If i must resort to Philosophy or Latin to exert my annoyance at someone so be it. nil sine labore, poor little chicken chokers. Oh and the best thing is that FB's Al Gore Rhythm cant keep up.  :Lol:

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Toolmaker51 (Aug 7, 2022)

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## MeJasonT

All the poor women called Karen  :Big Grin:  Oh and yes it is correct to use gender. apparently there are now 300 genders and that we should take into consideration a persons choice to be non binary, yeah but the science does not add up. We come from 2 chromosomes 1 male 1 female so yes you could get a she, he or he, she but not 300 variants. if they don't want to be considered male or female then they have to accept that they cant change DNA, guess what no male or female chromosome = no baby. What a person chooses to be or considers themselves as is entirely up to them, that's the great thing about living in a free society. I am getting a tad annoyed that by building an all inclusive society they have decided to exclude those who are binary and disagree with their doctoring. That is not being inclusive. When did education become so limp.

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Toolmaker51 (Aug 7, 2022)

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## Toolmaker51

> If, by “snowflakes” you refer to those of a sensitive disposition, (like me), you could call them a herd. But there is no real collective noun for snow flakes (putting on my mortar board), just “snow”. I’ve seen “flurry” used, though.



By no means Phillip. This meme expounded on the millennial anti-theft device, a manual transmission. The real "snowflakes" are nearly our fault collectively, for not exposing them to mechanical crafts, handwork, that hands-on engineering mindset. 
If I were to profile one such as yourself, it would not be "snowflake"; there nothing but good associations with kind-thoughtful-generous-helpful-considerate people, and looking in the right places, are in short supply.

That's far different from who can't generate torque on a screwdriver or hold up their end moving a dining table through a doorway. Frank S liked my branding of "those pink-fingered" twiddlers.

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Philip Davies (Aug 7, 2022)

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## Toolmaker51

> All the poor women called Karen  Oh and yes it is correct to use gender. apparently there are now 300 genders and that we should take into consideration a persons choice to be non binary, yeah but the science does not add up. We come from 2 chromosomes 1 male 1 female so yes you could get a she, he or he, she but not 300 variants. if they don't want to be considered male or female then they have to accept that they cant change DNA, guess what no male or female chromosome = no baby. What a person chooses to be or considers themselves as is entirely up to them, that's the great thing about living in a free society. I am getting a tad annoyed that by building an all inclusive society they have decided to exclude those who are binary and disagree with their doctoring. That is not being inclusive. When did education become so limp.



MeJasonT! Long time no see, I'd wondered about not seeing you pop up lately. 

It'll be a cold day you know where before any of the 300 (as of 08:39 Central Daylight Time) will convince me to address them any fraction out of my perception, other than 'it'. There 2 genders, hence 2 groups of applicable labels. Nature allows certain mix-ups, just as in any mass produced item. The predominate feature is what it is. 
To demand equality or considerations of any type is void when somebody adopts outsider. It is now 08:45, I'll bet 28 more classifications exist.

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## Toolmaker51

Instruments and tool-wise, I buy American, Continental, Japanese, and former USSR from a guy in Bulgaria. Some folks are incensed by other imported goods, I'm one. Because we appreciate quality. So what happens when that passion breaks down? Part of this stems from lackadaisical American ownership/ management of appreciated brands, unwilling to provide a reasonable degree of customer interaction. 
Or maybe my expectations are too high?

 
I found a great deal on a tapping stand, missing all the tap bushings. Sure, could DIY those, but that is a lot of square broaching and odd-size reaming. On April 28th found their website via brand name. It's very brief, barely descriptive, and no part lists. I called and messaged the inbox.
No reply.
By May 13th, table still available, emailed instead.
August 8th, inbound email had non-priced part lists, with inconspicuous reference to the bushings, which have to be among sought after replacements, no?
To not promote the subject company, what follows are copy/ paste of emails, redacted of any identifying references.

May 13: I sent,
_Good Afternoon;
After examining website, cannot find a parts list for Model XX-x. I'm looking for replacement tap holders, possibly die holders as well._ 
--------------------------------------------------------
August 8th, I receive 3 pdf's, without any kind of "Thank You for inquiring..." or justification, wife was sick, on vacation, dog ate my email....... nothing.

I asked,
_May 13, 2022! 
Almost 3 months?

Just how small is a company, marketing across a few online vendors, commissions or conducts their own castings - Blanchard grinding - fabrication of table frames - utilize commercial components - painting said products; without minding at least two incoming customer requests for information?_
----------------------------------------------------------------
August 9th, the reply, still without any solicitation or signature;
*I guess we arent worth doing business with then.*
--------------------------------------------------------------
 :Head Scratch: 
(must be wonderful rolling in dough, insolent at the same time. No biggie, what's a few $100 bucks and a bit of promotional exposure worth?)

so I replied,
_Not when parts missing from an otherwise good deal was in May.
Your lack of concern isn't much of an endorsement either._

(I don't expect a reply.)

This like I'm throwing a plate at a waitress for slightly raw hash browns, or buttered toast after ordering dry?

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## Frank S

I had a recent similar experience with a company I have been doing business with for several years now. Always purchased their product online by merely filling out the request order sheet scrolled down to pay now then clicked on my pay option. Never had any problem always got the items I had ordered, that is until very recently. A while back I needed to reorder some things, went through the procedures as I had always done, but no pricing had shown up throughout the form. Instead, the extended line always showed PQR, OH great, I'm thinking now not only did their special-order products require a price quotation request but their standard line items do as well I thought. I called the antiquated 1-800 number listened to the automated voice drone on and on until finally getting to the sequence of numbers for me to contact a salesman sorry salesperson. get voice mail box. back to the nice sounding automated voice listen once again, try another number sequence, same thing once again. I do these 4 or 5 times because I really need to place my order. Finally in desperation I decide to try another route asked for employment opportunities low and behold I get a human on the line. I ask her not to put me on hold or transfer me but tell me if there are any salesp0erssons available with whom I can place an order. She seems aghast, "OH MY GOD SIR" yes from my desk I can see at least 3 who are just sitting at their desks not on their phones. our stupid new call routing system automatically routes sales inquiries to whomever it wants it seems, but it is supposed to automatically route to the next available person whose line is free. If you would like I can buzz one of them to pick up and take your order but before I do write down my extension if you ever have a problem again just punch in my number and I will be more than glad to connect you. I thanked her and told her she was most helpful. To this she replied ever sense the 2020 election their prices have been inn such a daily flux they had to lock down their online ordering system and it was costing them dearly they try to give their customers the best possible price for their purchases, but it is proving to be more of a headache than anyone could imagine. She also gave me 4 salespersons extension numbers to keep for my future use. Since them I have made a few more orders and have not had any problems al be it I still have to do my ordering during their business hours instead of at my leisure which was usually at night.

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Philip Davies (Aug 12, 2022),

Scotty1 (Aug 13, 2022),

Toolmaker51 (Aug 13, 2022)

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## Toolmaker51

Really, who of us hasn't? 

I guess those without phone service, maybe.....

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