# Best Homemade Tools >  Poor mans lathe DRO's

## bobs409

Just a shot of some cheap Harbor Freight digital calipers I adapted to my mini lathe. I will be adding similar to the tail stock and possibly even the compound slide. It's about the cheapest DRO you'll find and they are quite accurate! They repeat everytime too.

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billster (Mar 29, 2017),

C-Bag (Mar 28, 2017),

EnginePaul (Feb 26, 2018),

j.bickley (Feb 8, 2018),

Lance Maskell (Mar 30, 2017),

Miloslav (Jan 11, 2019),

Okapi (Mar 28, 2017),

olderdan (Mar 29, 2017),

oldpastit (Jan 12, 2019),

Paul Jones (Mar 28, 2017),

Seedtick (Mar 28, 2017),

zarembak (Jun 7, 2018)

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## DIYer

Thanks bobs409! We've added your Lathe DRO to our Digital Readouts category,
as well as to your builder page: bobs409's Homemade Tools. Your receipt:















Lathe DRO
 by bobs409

tags:
DRO

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## C-Bag

I likeee, sure would be nice some closer pic of the mounts as I am lazy!

Thanks for posting.

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EnginePaul (Jan 7, 2021),

Paul Jones (Mar 28, 2017)

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## Frank S

I will agree that a digital caliper can be reasonably accurate. I've owned dozens of them over the years but none of them seem to last for very long at least not for me that is. I once owned an 18" Mitutoyo very pricey. Far too pricey for no longer than it lasted in my opinion 
At least whit the HF ones they are inexpensive enough that one doesn't mind modifying them to fit the desired application I just wish that someone would come up with a way to hare wire any of them into the machine's power And I may have just thought of a way to do just that by removing the batteries and soldering ina pair of leads to connect to a DC converter with the correct output voltage

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## C-Bag

> I will agree that a digital caliper can be reasonably accurate. I've owned dozens of them over the years but none of them seem to last for very long at least not for me that is. I once owned an 18" Mitutoyo very pricey. Far too pricey for no longer than it lasted in my opinion 
> At least whit the HF ones they are inexpensive enough that one doesn't mind modifying them to fit the desired application I just wish that someone would come up with a way to hare wire any of them into the machine's power And I may have just thought of a way to do just that by removing the batteries and soldering ina pair of leads to connect to a DC converter with the correct output voltage



Different calipers seem to work differently with battery life. I have an igaging DRO on the z axis on my mill drill that is basically the bar and the slide without the caliper jaws and it's 4yrs old now and still has the same lo buck button battery that came with it. Meanwhile I bought a digital 4" caliper from a well know supplier and even though I seldom use it, it eats batteries and is always dead every time I pick it up and with good expensive buttons even though it turns itself off like they all do. Igaging also has a USB port and a little charge port for some of its series of DRO's. 

I personally like my dial calipers just fine and have had good luck with them. 

So bobs409 how have your HF calipers been holding up battery wise? Do they have any ports like USB or charging?

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## olderdan

> Just a shot of some cheap Harbor Freight digital calipers I adapted to my mini lathe. I will be adding similar to the tail stock and possibly even the compound slide. It's about the cheapest DRO you'll find and they are quite accurate! They repeat everytime too.



Nice work Bobs,
I also use this method for occasional use on the lathe saddle, in my case the calliper is not modified.
I mostly use it when coordinate drilling and it is mounted on the thread dial spigot, very useful and accurate.

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billster (Mar 29, 2017),

bobs409 (Mar 29, 2017),

Christophe Mineau (Mar 29, 2017),

Paul Jones (Mar 29, 2017)

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## Woodgeezr

digital calipers that use the LR44/A76 battery will last a lot longer if you use an SR44/357/303 battery. they are all the same size, but the LR44 is an alkaline battery. the SR44 is a silver oxide based battery. silver oxide will last for years. alkaline - months.

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barsyl4041@netzero.net (Mar 29, 2017),

billster (Mar 29, 2017),

bobs409 (Mar 29, 2017),

C-Bag (Mar 28, 2017),

Chrisk7 (Feb 9, 2018),

Christophe Mineau (Mar 29, 2017),

Frank S (Mar 28, 2017),

j.bickley (Feb 8, 2018),

Moby Duck (Mar 28, 2017),

olderdan (Mar 29, 2017),

Papa Bill (Mar 29, 2017),

Paul Jones (Mar 29, 2017),

Ron 2 (Apr 15, 2017),

Seedtick (Mar 29, 2017),

Toolmaker51 (Mar 29, 2017),

Wmrra13 (Mar 28, 2017)

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## C-Bag

Thanks for the info. Just checked it and I was using the SR44 because that's what was in it originally and I'm not smart enough to know those crossover #'s, but I do now  :Smile:  still eats the SR's in no time. There's obviously something wrong with it so it's out of the lineup.

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## Frank S

> digital calipers that use the LR44/A76 battery will last a lot longer if you use an SR44/357/303 battery. they are all the same size, but the LR44 is an alkaline battery. the SR44 is a silver oxide based battery. silver oxide will last for years. alkaline - months.



Thanks I have 3 dead calipers now I will have to see if I can find a silver oxide replacement for them 
I've had several over the years that would cease to function in minutes after replacing the batteries. My temperament is not such that affords me with rational thinking when I grab a DRO caliper expecting it to function properly and doesn't. If it fails to switch on that's fine I just figure the battery is dead but when it gives me erratic readings while I am using it due to a low battery or something else I usually fold it before thinking

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Paul Jones (Mar 29, 2017),

Toolmaker51 (Mar 29, 2017)

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## bobs409

> I likeee, sure would be nice some closer pic of the mounts as I am lazy!
> 
> Thanks for posting.



Alrighty. Here's a few. I made U shaped bracket that clamps onto the cross slide at the back. One cap screw on the left side holds it in place. At the front side of the cross slide I added an attaching block. There was 2 existing holes there so I took advantage of those. The last one is actually one of two stop blocks I made for the ways. I used one of them to attach the end of the caliper and made a knurled knob to so no tools are needed to remove it. 

Of course every machine will be different. Mine is a 7 X 16 Microlux.

Hope this helps.

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C-Bag (Mar 29, 2017),

Lance Maskell (Mar 30, 2017),

olderdan (Mar 29, 2017),

Paul Jones (Mar 29, 2017)

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## C-Bag

My only problem is my apron lock is right where the two DRO's come together. I'm sure there is some work around but your details help a bunch, thanks.

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## Paul Jones

bob409,

The photos showing the setup details are very helpful and shows us what we have to machine to our specs. Also, thanks to Woodgeezr regarding the difference between the SR44 and LR44 batteries. I buy the 10 pack of Energizer 357/303 Zero Mercury Batteries using Amazon Prime for about $1.10 per battery. 

Thank you,

Paul

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## Manitoba Man

Hi Bobs-Greetings from Canada

I have an Atlas lathe and a homemade mill/lathe both crying out for your DRO setup. Thanks. I like how you combined the x and y calipers on one bolt.


Bob

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bobs409 (Mar 29, 2017)

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## barsyl4041@netzero.net

Thanks Woodgeezer: Like you, I tried the SR44 batterys and found them lots better. I also found that sometimes the LR44 batterys were not dead, but had an oxide layer build up from setting around. a little cleaning with a pencil eraser on both sides of the battery and inside contacts fixed the problem. BLF

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## Christophe Mineau

> but when it gives me erratic readings while I am using it due to a low battery or something else I usually fold it before thinking



Hi Franck, I'm sure you will be happy with that :
https://www.woodgears.ca/caliper/index.html

I have three digital calipers, the first keeps reliable, but like CBags, eats batteries like nothing. Why don't they feature an auto off on these calipers ?
The two others, very cheap, although a very similar build, started to give erratic measures, and random resets.

I ended making a research on the Internet and found that article from Mathias (the Great).
It is incredibly working !
And now, my best caliper is one of these cheap calipers, fixed like so.

Since I started having erratic measures, I purchased a dial caliper, which is, for the same precision, far more repeatable, but with this one, I very often make millimeters mistake. So, now, when turning something precise, I tend to use the digital one when approaching less than 1 mm to the target, and the final mm, I measure it with the dial caliper.

Christophe

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Moby Duck (Mar 30, 2017),

Paul Jones (Mar 30, 2017),

Toolmaker51 (Mar 29, 2017)

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## WyoGreen

On another forum a long time ago I found a thread about the SR/LR batteries. Additionally, they said the calipers never really shut off, just the displays turn off. They went on with a comparison of the current drain of different brands of calipers. The Chinese made calipers had the biggest current drain, while the Mitutoyos had the lowest current drain.

Steve

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Paul Jones (Mar 30, 2017)

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## Frank S

Thanks Christophe But then I wouldn't have the fun of watching my wife cringe at the sight of me destroying expensive useless things 
When I need precision I break out my micrometer sets My biggest problem is not having a 3CR (Clean Climate Controlled Room) Of coarse I no longer have the luxury of languishing in the $100,000.00 a year expense account either

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## Toolmaker51

Quite good indeed. That quick attachment is critical in my estimation. There are certainly times when tools are at risk, regardless the expense. Additionally, 6'' works in envelope tolerances want to be held close. A 12'' would introduce error [doubled] if not flat and parallel to the ways. All DRO kits have hardware to adjust precise alignment with a moving machine element; carriage, table, or quill.
My lathe is equipped with 70's era electronic operating like a Trav-A-Dial. Both use a wheel of precise circumference to infer travel. Accurate within .002 over entire 54'' of travel, but face of way needs cleanliness to function accurately. The vertical axis of wheel requires 100% alignment in both planes to perform. The compound is equipped differently. 
On fleabuy, found a 1950's era patent model of a vernier scale and division plate. Scale is mounted, the divisions are movable anywhere along length of scale. So not exactly 'Zeroed' in common manner but 2.000 or any reading is easily returned to. A little trig allows for PRECISE size control at any angle. Observing approach to desired measurement and cutting action almost simultaneously is better than counting flashing digits.
In keeping with observation different geological areas have preferential compound angles. 30* (even 29.5*) moves one half division of that dial. At 90*, you'll get 1:1 control of facing, snap ring grooves, counterbores etc. In the US, with carriage readers fairly common, 29.5*-30* is ready for fine diameter control and threading. With close diameters, I like a .0005, .0001, once a .00005 test indicator on the crosslide. For production, using QC toolpost and holders, only a two-axis DRO would be suitable. Long travel indicator stems on lathes is asking for trouble.
Fluctuation in calipers; digit [most visible], dial and vernier [least visible] have at least one more error inducer. All calipers have lathe-like 'ways'. Width of the beam face controls one direction by depth of the channel in the carriage. Few have an adjustment correction there. Along the edge, two miniature set screws compensate a gib. Many fool around with those to achieve smooth movement. WRONG! Using elevated sense of touch, correct adjustment is parallel jaws; then smooth travel. O/O/P results in different readings at every point between the jaws. Best method outside calibration lab is a bearing ball, offering minimal contact, no deformation, and no surface to 'fake' the jaws into parallelism. A drop of enamel, nail polish or linseed oil on screwhead seals the setting, yet removable. No Loctite!

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Paul Jones (Mar 30, 2017)

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## C-Bag

> On another forum a long time ago I found a thread about the SR/LR batteries. Additionally, they said the calipers never really shut off, just the displays turn off. They went on with a comparison of the current drain of different brands of calipers. The Chinese made calipers had the biggest current drain, while the Mitutoyos had the lowest current drain.
> 
> Steve



Isn't that interesting. So the screen only turns off so it doesn't lose its memory? Now why does the igaging lo buck made in China battery last literally forever and my 6" calipers die in hours? There is some wildly fluctuating manufacturing spec's there. Even as bad as the 6" is, I don't think I could smash it like Frank. I'm just weak I guess.

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## Toolmaker51

All DRO's have two sets of accuracy tolerance. Repeatability and Resolution. Repeat is ability to interpret return to the same previous or predetermined setting. Resolution is how fine an increment can be read. They are interdependent and individual at the same time. Most place Repeat a higher importance. To them Resolution would mean if drawing tolerances appear met. However...
Where calibration is actually maintained, resolution ranks high. Typically a 4:1 ratio is used. The instrument must have resolution 4x finer than tolerance range, meaning +/- .002. [.004 total] demands accuracy of .001. And +/- .001 = .0005. And +/- .0001 = .00005. And +.0001/ -.0000 = .000025.
Size control is what it's all about. Then cleanliness, temperature, and humidity need restrictions. Yep, accuracy's expensive.

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C-Bag (Mar 30, 2017),

Paul Jones (Mar 30, 2017)

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## mklotz

If you have the money, buy a Mitutoyo. They maintain their position memory when turned off and the batteries last forever. 

https://www.amazon.com/Mitutoyo-500-...+caliper&psc=1

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## Frank S

Marv, While in Kuwait I learned the hard way that there are knock offs to Mitutoyo, which unless you send them to a lab for inspection you can't tell them from the real thing. After that while over there I vowed never to buy another of their products except from a well known reputable dealer or to buy a used one that had documented calibrations.

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## tonyfoale

> If you have the money, buy a Mitutoyo. They maintain their position memory when turned off and the batteries last forever.



That has been my experience also.
It has also been been my observation that the accuracy and repeatability of vernier and digital calipers generally exceeds the user's ability to use them correctly.
It is non-digital micrometers that I reach for when I need accuracy, which I check against a standard before any really important work. Although I am a bit anal about how I treat measuring instruments, I only look on calipers as rough and ready tools.

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olderdan (Mar 31, 2017)

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## mklotz

Yes, proper use is important. With my Mitutoyo dial calipers I can easily detect a difference of less than a thou. The people who say that (quality) calipers are only good to a few thou aren't using them correctly.

I periodically check my dial and digital calipers with my Jo blocks and they're both good to a thou if the jaws are held properly on the block.

Micrometers are wonderful tools but they're overkill for a great deal of shop measurement.

One thing I don't do is use calipers to check the diameter of something being turned on the lathe. It's almost impossible to hold calipers perpendicular to the axis and get the jaws closed squarely. For that job, a micrometer is the right tool; not only is it accurate but it's mechanically suited to the measurement being made.

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Paul Jones (Mar 30, 2017)

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## Christophe Mineau

> If you have the money, buy a Mitutoyo. They maintain their position memory when turned off and the batteries last forever. 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Mitutoyo-500-...+caliper&psc=1



About the Mitutoyo, I'll probably do that, sooner or later, but when I look at the picture of that caliper on Amazon, I find it really close to the "standard" Chinese calipers, and I am never confident to buy expensive brands who make in the same factories as noname products.
But this is unfounded, and I am ready to believe you, but that's probably why I didn't do it so far.


edit : 
It's funny, just after having written that, I looked on eBay and found this one :
Mitutoyo 6'' 0-150mm/0.01mm Digital Caliper Stainless Steel Electronic Vernier | eBay

look at the description :
_Mitutoyo 6 inch 0-150mm/0.01 Digital Caliper Stainless Steel Electronic Vernier Calipers
Note :
It's high quality model made in China,
but the components are the same as the original as well as the functions, please rest assured._

 :Lol:

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Moby Duck (Mar 30, 2017),

Paul Jones (Mar 30, 2017),

Toolmaker51 (Mar 30, 2017)

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## WyoGreen

I imagine that the "high quality model made in China", is one of the knock-offs mentioned earlier. A few years ago I read a thread that compared battery life on these calipers. First off, most of these calipers do not turn off, they just blank the display. The Chinese calipers had the highest current draw (even with the display blank), thus the shortest battery life. The Mitutoyo's had the lowest current draw, so they had the longest battery life. In addition, the SR type batteries that Mitutoyo uses last much longer than the LR type batteries that the cheaper calipers use. You can use a SR replacement battery in the cheaper calipers to obtain a longer battery life.

Steve

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Lance Maskell (Mar 30, 2017)

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## DanLins

> I imagine that the "high quality model made in China", is one of the knock-offs mentioned earlier. A few years ago I read a thread that compared battery life on these calipers. First off, most of these calipers do not turn off, they just blank the display. The Chinese calipers had the highest current draw (even with the display blank), thus the shortest battery life. The Mitutoyo's had the lowest current draw, so they had the longest battery life. In addition, the SR type batteries that Mitutoyo uses last much longer than the LR type batteries that the cheaper calipers use. You can use a SR replacement battery in the cheaper calipers to obtain a longer battery life.
> 
> Steve



Look closely at the cheap knock-offs on eBay. Most have a resolution to the nearest 0.001", while the real ones are good to 0.0005". eBay does not seem to be able to police these knock-offs very well.

Dan L

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## Andy Smith

> Look closely at the cheap knock-offs on eBay. Most have a resolution to the nearest 0.001", while the real ones are good to 0.0005". eBay does not seem to be able to police these knock-offs very well.
> 
> Dan L



I bought one to have as backup for when my cheap supermarket one died I had had it for six years,The"Mitutoyo" didnt last SIX weeks. junk

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## ricbor

Agree. I used one of these for many years. I finally had to retire them due to the fact that the battery terminal broke and I could only repair it so well and the more I tried to fix it the worse it got until it would no longer work. But, they are great calipers and never had any other problems with them.

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## Toolmaker51

> ...look at the description : _Mitutoyo 6 inch 0-150mm/0.01 Digital Caliper Stainless Steel Electronic Vernier Calipers
> Note : It's high quality model made in China, but the components are the same as the original as well as the functions, please rest assured._



Funny how salesmanship fosters suspicion, "...please rest assured".
I rest best when assurance is not an issue; the point of a name brand. The phrase "Same as" is cheap, and NOT equal without genuine certifications. I can relate Aventor brand taking YT by storm, thoroughly wrung out. My old 6" TESA still hangs in there, replacement search will begin with those or Fowler Xtra-Value. I use digital calipers carefully, appreciative of "4 way measurement" feature, and selecting decimal stock by metric conversion. Most our work is metric based and while new material on hand is US and metric, drops aren't separated, so a little sketch & caliper is ideal. Just today ran some headed bushings w/ inside shoulder; from remnant tube with suitable bore to clean up. Long ago made leather 'holster' formed just like that for a revolver. Hangs by a large banker clip from belt/ waistband. Handy as a shirt pocket, 'cept won't fall out!

While changing out of work garb in the locker room today, had to laugh out loud, real loud. 
"Rest Assured" is printed on the package of toilet seat covers...

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Paul Jones (Mar 30, 2017)

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## Toolmaker51

> Look closely at the cheap knock-offs on eBay. Most have a resolution to the nearest 0.001", while the real ones are good to 0.0005". eBay does not seem to be able to police these knock-offs very well. Dan L



YES, DanLins, 100%. 
To All; I don't see policing by Ebay as a real thorough undertaking. If US Customs, Rolex, Gucci, any automaker, antique Colts, musical instruments; probably any item in the global market can't get a handle on trademarks, no one can monitor actual product. I'm certain a number of high volume sellers 'augment' their inventory with counterfeits; some unintentionally, usurped by low price wholesaler.
First clue to me? Just notice if they use a stock product photo. If 40 different sellers display 100's of identical rows upon row, THE PRODUCT IS THE SAME. Some are so unfamiliar with items, text is copy/ paste too. Or reminds you of poorly translated instruction manual. Steer clear. Caveat emptor.
If unsure, use those with some kind of brick and mortar presence, there are plenty.

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## Paul Jones

Toolmaker51,

I have a 6" Mitutoyo model 505-637 dial indicator I bought in 1970 and it has worked very well and accurately until about three years ago. I check my dial, electronic and 1" and 2" mics every six months with a series of gage blocks to check for wear and for peace of mind. That is when I discovered the Mitutoyo dial indicator was measuring 0.0015" too large between 0.450" and 0.550". I think the precision rack used for measurement must be more worn in this range but it took many years before it made any difference. Three years ago, I replaced the dial indicator with a Mitutoyo 6" Absolute AOS Digimatic model 500-170-30 electronic caliper. It works very well, does not eat batteries, knows how to maintain zero without checking at zero, turns off automatically when put back in the toolbox and other than the back of the plastic display case showing signs of wearing from sliding on the work bench when it is picked up, I have no complaints. 

The cost of your time, reputation and materials can be easily lost when not using quality measurement tools so I think it is worthwhile paying more for precision measurement instruments you will keep for a lifetime and you will trust. The worst thing is doing your machining by the book and discovering your craftsmanship was compromised by your measuring instrument.

Thanks for listening,

Paul Jones

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Toolmaker51 (Mar 31, 2017)

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## Saltfever

Electronics are wonderful but I am moving back to full mechanical. While I change all my batteries at the same time once a year I am phasing out electronic everything. There is much more peace of mind with a dormant mechanical instrument resting in a drawer. You cant say the same thing for anything electrical. I cant tell you how many devices have been ruined by Duracell batteries. They are complete crap. It took a while and the loss of some lovely tools but I finally caught on. I will never buy a Duracell anything. The company was purchased a few years ago and downgraded their manufacturing.

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## Ed Weldon

Marv - I'm becoming a fan of yours. Here's a tip for calibrating calipers. Several years ago I happened on to a nice old set of Pratt and Whitney square gauge blocks and followed those listings on eBay to fill out the missing pieces. Among the findings was a poorly cared for set of long blocks up to 6 inches long. Worthless for serious lab work but perfect for checking the calibration of dial calipers. Ed Weldon, Los Gatos, CA

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Paul Jones (Mar 31, 2017)

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## mklotz

> Marv - I'm becoming a fan of yours. Here's a tip for calibrating calipers. Several years ago I happened on to a nice old set of Pratt and Whitney square gauge blocks and followed those listings on eBay to fill out the missing pieces. Among the findings was a poorly cared for set of long blocks up to 6 inches long. Worthless for serious lab work but perfect for checking the calibration of dial calipers. Ed Weldon, Los Gatos, CA



If you're going to check a micrometer for accuracy, it's important to use a set of gage blocks that cause the spindle to seat at different orientations so drunken thread errors will be noticed. The preferred set for inch micrometers is: 0.105, 0.210, 0.315, 0.420, 0.500, 0.605, 0.710, 0.815, 0.920, 1.000. For metric micrometers the preferred set is: 3.1, 6.5, 9.7, 12.5, 15.8, 19.0, 21.9, 25.0. 

This leads me to wonder if there is a preferred set of blocks to use when checking calipers. Since calipers don't use a thread as micrometers do the sets indicated above may not be the correct ones to use. Nevertheless they do use a scale with regularly spaced elements that are sensed electronically (or a rack for dial types). Such scales are liable to periodic errors just as a thread is. My intuition says that checking should be done at intervals that are not nice multiples of each other; checking every inch probably isn't the best. (Hmm, maybe the micrometer sequence or some subset of it isn't such a bad choice.)

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Paul Jones (Mar 31, 2017),

Toolmaker51 (Mar 31, 2017)

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## mklotz

> Electronics are wonderful but I am moving back to full mechanical. While I change all my batteries at the same time once a year I am phasing out electronic everything. There is much more peace of mind with a dormant mechanical instrument resting in a drawer. You can’t say the same thing for anything electrical. I can’t tell you how many devices have been ruined by Duracell batteries. They are complete crap. It took a while and the loss of some lovely tools but I finally caught on. I will never buy a Duracell anything. The company was purchased a few years ago and downgraded their manufacturing.



I'm sure there are poorly made batteries but so far I haven't been able to single out a manufacturer. I've had several flashlights ruined by leaking Duracells as well as other name brands of batteries. I've never had a leaking Japanese battery but that might be coincidental.

I have dozens of devices that use "coin" batteries (e.g. CR2016, CR2032) and I never have had a leaker. Is it the chemistry or the case construction that makes these so device-friendly?

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## Paul Jones

Marv,

You are correct about not using nice multiples of measurement intervals to check the accuracy of the calipers. That is how I found the error in may gently worn 6" Mitutoyo model 505-637 dial indicator. I had suspected there may be an error in the range under 1" because of machining some parts with a sliding fit and finding my micrometer and caliper did not agree. I went about "bracketing" the location of the error by measuring at 0.415" intervals with gage blocks offset with 0.5" and 1.0" intervals and quickly discover the error was consistently at the lower range of the dial caliper and then subdivided again the bracket until I found the error was between 0.450" and 0.550". I think the precision rack used for measurement must be more worn down in this range. I still use the calipers but know now know where I have a measurement problem.

Paul

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Toolmaker51 (Mar 31, 2017)

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## mklotz

> Marv,
> 
> You are correct about not using nice multiples of measurement intervals to check the accuracy of the calipers. That is how I found the error in may gently worn 6" Mitutoyo model 505-637 dial indicator. I had suspected there may be an error in the range under 1" because of machining some parts with a sliding fit and finding my micrometer and caliper did not agree. I went about "bracketing" the location of the error by measuring at 0.415" intervals with gage blocks offset with 0.5" and 1.0" intervals and quickly discover the error was consistently at the lower range of the dial caliper and then subdivided again the bracket until I found the error was between 0.450" and 0.550". I think the precision rack used for measurement must be more worn down in this range. I still use the calipers but know now know where I have a measurement problem.
> 
> Paul



Absent any detailed knowledge of the caliper rack (mechanical or digital) construction, I would be inclined to use test standards based on a progression of the prime numbers - 1,2,3,5,7,11,13...- multiplied by a suitable power of ten to provide, say, five to ten measurement points in the intervals of interest.

Using Jo blocks for test standards may tempt folks to use the single blocks because they don't want to spend the time wringing blocks together to get a series like the ones I've discussed. Plug gauges come in increments of thousandths but most folks only have sets that go up to 0.5" or so. Perhaps the solution is plug gauges used in conjunction with a Jo block.

Folks are going to think us crazy to devote such effort to calibrating a tool that most of us use where accuracy of a thousandth is sufficient. But, as you noted, the idea is to locate suspect areas in the tool's range where wear, damage, or construction creates an error "zone" with greater than average error. With this in mind, I would calibrate the 0-1" range of the calipers very closely since, if my work is any indication, that's where the tool is most often used.

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Paul Jones (Mar 31, 2017),

Toolmaker51 (Mar 31, 2017)

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## Saltfever

I am not angry, only disappointed in myself for being brand-phobic and hanging on too long. I have lost $$thousands in equipment to Duracell. The warrantee is not! All you can get is the cost of the batteries. Just one, of many examples; how about $3.00 for a $1,200 aviation GPS . . . I could go on. I post here only because I value you and this site too much to not pass on a warning. I will not bring up the issue again.

Notice the *expiration date is irrelevant!* 2017, 20*23* all go bad!

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## Saltfever

> . . . If you're going to check a micrometer for accuracy, it's important to use a set of gage blocks that cause the spindle to seat at different orientations so drunken thread errors will be noticed. The preferred set for inch micrometers is: 0.105, 0.210, 0.315, 0.420, 0.500, 0.605, 0.710, 0.815, 0.920, 1.000 . . . .



Marv, I notice your preferred increment is 0.105" each time. On a typical 40 thread mic that would be 4.2 threads. Anything special about 4.2 threads every time?

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## mklotz

> Marv, I notice your preferred increment is 0.105" each time. On a typical 40 thread mic that would be 4.2 threads. Anything special about 4.2 threads every time?



As the quote says, it's done so the spindle seats at different rotary orientations each time. The last thing one would want is an increment (such as an integer multiple of 1/40 = 0.025) so the spindle always seats at the same orientation.

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## Saltfever

Got it . . . non-repeating "orientation" is the important ingredient. Thanks  :Smile:

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## Toolmaker51

> Toolmaker51, 
> I have a 6" Mitutoyo model 505-637 dial indicator I bought in 1970 and it has worked very well and accurately until about three years ago. I check my dial, electronic and 1" and 2" mics every six months with a series of gage blocks to check for wear and for peace of mind. That is when I discovered the Mitutoyo dial indicator was measuring 0.0015" too large between 0.450" and 0.550". I think the precision rack used for measurement must be more worn in this range but it took many years before it made any difference. Three years ago, I replaced the dial indicator with a Mitutoyo 6" Absolute AOS Digimatic model 500-170-30 electronic caliper. It works very well, does not eat batteries, knows how to maintain zero without checking at zero, turns off automatically when put back in the toolbox and other than the back of the plastic display case showing signs of wearing from sliding on the work bench when it is picked up, I have no complaints. 
> The cost of your time, reputation and materials can be easily lost when not using quality measurement tools so I think it is worthwhile paying more for precision measurement instruments you will keep for a lifetime and you will trust. The worst thing is doing your machining by the book and discovering your craftsmanship was compromised by your measuring instrument.
> 
> Thanks for listening,
> Paul Jones



I'm always listening, especially here at HMT. In no way could an individual amass a fraction of this spectrum in reasoning, experience, resources, and even failures. The knowledge/ open exchange of plain ideas is beneficial and entertaining. One has no clue timewise when a mere seed becomes a solution.
Physical quality [vice theoretical or administrative manipulation] one my favorite goals. My assemblage of instruments is kind of varied, so I utilize that which suits a task. Virtually, but not all were bought used; micrometers, calipers, gauge blocks, cylinder squares, calibration pyramids, zillions of indicators...each hand selected. Best feature of TAS? Tax deductible! Most are US, remaining 20% or so European & Japanese with full confidence in each one. Not one single item subject to calibration is or will be Chinese. While government sold us out of full manufacturing, they DID NOT buy my ability to produce.

In reference to micrometers, gauge blocks, and spindle orientation; varying that is not only a check of the threads but parallelism of the spindle to anvil. Calibration labs check with optical flats; sized to cause 4 spindle orientations. That can be corrected, done in a little dedicated lap. One setup would remind you of a disc brake lathe, another is a micrometer lapping plate. Either can accomplish flat and parallel less than twenty millionth of an inch (0.000020”) [0.5 micrometers]. Marv's description amplifies that; flat is meaningless without parallel. Also why some calibration standards are flat ended but surfaces measured [workpieces] are most often curved.
Calipers are lapped in the same manner, once the gib has been adjusted per that mentioned earlier. A commercially made tool of different measurement intervals is commonly used to verify calibration of vernier, dial, and digital models for inside and outside jaws. I don't believe depth rods and step features are beyond having a positive zero.

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## mwmansfield

> I'm sure there are poorly made batteries but so far I haven't been able to single out a manufacturer. I've had several flashlights ruined by leaking Duracells as well as other name brands of batteries. I've never had a leaking Japanese battery but that might be coincidental.
> 
> I have dozens of devices that use "coin" batteries (e.g. CR2016, CR2032) and I never have had a leaker. Is it the chemistry or the case construction that makes these so device-friendly?



Duracell changed to an off shore manufacturer and the batteries were changed and the change is that the can that the battery is assembled in is reversed. Instead of the negative being the bottom of the can and case of the battery, they have made the positive the bottom of the can and put a seal and negative end cap on the battery. There are several brands that went to this method of manufacturing and it don't work very well at all as most leak, even brand new in the packaging! I have went through everything I have Duracell batteries in and almost all were leaking (I live at 6500 ft above sea level). The AAA and AA seem to be the worst for me but that was the most sizes I use. The date codes make no difference as all Duracell batteries are now made this way and most all will leak, especially if any pressure builds up in the cell due to altitude or anything that causes a pressure to develope in the cell. 
There are some great technical articles that can be found by Googling defective leaking batteries or such. Googling leaking Duracell batteries will probably bring up what you are looking for and will explain better what the exact problem is. Hope this helps and hope you don't have any Duracell batteries in any of your expensive equipment. If you do, you better find another brand that has the positive end of the battery sealed rather than the seal on the negative end. I have thrown away several hundred dollars worth of batteries and some equipment that had the electrolyte leaked out and had got under the IC's on the citcuit boards and caused unrepairable damage to the instrument. 
Duracell is happy to replace the batteries with the exact same type and some may be leaking when you receive the replacements. 
Good luck with getting Duracell to replace any equipment that their leaking batteries have damaged or destroyed.
I purchased a set of Duracell flashlights of the aluminum MAG type that were LED and very bright and had a flashing mode on them to scare someone away supposedly(?). I bought these at one of the large box stores that requires a yearly membership. One used D cells, one used C cells. Of the two sets of these flashlights I purchased, all but one would not work, I opened them up and all had leaking Duracell batteries in them, 1 I couldn't even get working as it had eat all the tracks from the circuit board that had a IC, few other components and the large LED array. The aluminum tubes were etched from the leaking batteries which was sealed to the outside air supposedly as they were supposed to be waterproof. I took back the set that I couldn't even get working and got my money back. They made a remark that they had almost all returned that had been sold.

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## Wheels17

> I am not angry, only disappointed in myself for being brand-phobic and hanging on too long. I have lost $$thousands in equipment to Duracell. The warrantee is not! All you can get is the cost of the batteries. Just one, of many examples; how about $3.00 for a $1,200 aviation GPS . . . I could go on. I post here only because I value you and this site too much to not pass on a warning. I will not bring up the issue again.
> 
> Notice the *expiration date is irrelevant!* 2017, 20*23* all go bad!



I have noticed the same thing with Duracell. I have had at least 10 Duracell batteries leak in the last couple of years. I think they have some sort of manufacturing problem. They are either unaware of the problem or will not acknowledge it. I'm starting to move to other batteries. I'm trying the Amazon Basics for now, but in my first test (computer mouse) they don't seem to have the life of the Duracells. More testing needed.

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## metric_taper

> I am not angry, only disappointed in myself for being brand-phobic and hanging on too long. I have lost $$thousands in equipment to Duracell. The warrantee is not! All you can get is the cost of the batteries. Just one, of many examples; how about $3.00 for a $1,200 aviation GPS . . . I could go on. I post here only because I value you and this site too much to not pass on a warning. I will not bring up the issue again.
> 
> Notice the *expiration date is irrelevant!* 2017, 20*23* all go bad!



I found a similar problem with a DRO, but compounded was the Mitutoyo was darn hard to change the batteries in, as considerable disassembly was required to access them. So my fix was to install and external battery pack. I just happened to find D size battery holder at a Radio Shack (when they still had electronic components). I installed a power connector on the case of the DRO display and then used a mating connector to inject the external battery power.



I used double sticky foam tape, but the weight of the batteries resulted in the zip tie fix. The rear view shows 2 screws that have to be removed to take the display head off the mount tray, then I believe the bottom is removed to access the internal batteries. I also found the life of the AA to be short in this unit.

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## Frank S

There seems to be more of a reason for the old Batteries not included slogan now than ever. 
I was hoping when the old Rayovac batteries disappeared that the leakage issue was put to rest. 
.

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## Jon

I didn't realize the Duracell drama waters ran so deep. To be fair, most large companies are tangled in plenty of litigation, but there are two interesting Duracell class actions. One was over misleading statements surrounding superior battery life, and was settled in 2014 for $50 million:




> In Joshua Poertner v. The Gillette Company and The Procter & Gamble Company, plaintiffs alleged that the Defendants participated in misleading and deceptive advertising and marketing of Duracell Ultra Batteries. Plaintiffs further claim that their advertising statements including the statements “Up to 30% Longer in Toys* *vs. Ultra Digital” and “Our Longest Lasting,” mislead consumers into purchasing the Duracell Ultra Batteries.



https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-...on-settlement/


And another lawsuit, explicitly over the leaking issue, was dismissed in 2016:




> A federal judge threw out a lawsuit accusing Procter & Gamble Co (PG.N) of misleading consumers by guaranteeing that Duracell batteries would not fail for 10 years, when in fact the batteries might leak when used or stored normally.
> 
> In a decision late Tuesday night, U.S. District Judge Lucy Koh in San Jose, California, rejected claims in the proposed class-action lawsuit that P&G and its Gillette unit defrauded consumers in ads and packaging for Coppertop batteries containing "Duralock Power Preserve" technology.
> 
> Koh said reasonable consumers would understand that P&G's representation that the batteries were "guaranteed for 10 years in storage" was a warranty to repair, replace or refund batteries that failed within that timeframe, and not a promise that the batteries "have no potential to leak."



Lawsuit over Duracell batteries guarantee is thrown out | Reuters

Interestingly, the suit that settled for $50 million was the subject of considerable debate over the disproportionate amount of the settlement given to the attorneys (94%), vs. the amount offered to affected consumers - up to a whopping $12 cash *if you kept the proof of purchase for your batteries*: Supreme Court petition in Duracell class action spotlights fee abuses | Fortune.com.

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## bobs409

Just a heads up for anyone going this route, I didn't realize it at the time but some H.F. calipers only go up to hundredths! The ones pictures are, you guessed it, those kind! They are the ones made of graphite. I got those for ease of drilling. Might as well just tape a yard stick on!  :Lol:  Luckily they were very cheap so not much loss. So if your doing this mod, get the metal ones that measure in thousandths. 

Because of this change, I had to modify the way they attach in the pic as trying to drill though those steel calipers is impossible. I think they are made of titanium!?! 

Also it seems that the new ones all turn on with any movement which is annoying as you don't always need a DRO. I am going to be adding some micro slide switches to mine to shut them off when not needed.

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olderdan (Apr 4, 2017)

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## tonyfoale

Several people have mentioned the fact that short battery life is because the calipers and other measuring devices don't turn off when switched off. Yet someone mentioned that their Mitutoyo didn't eat batteries.
There is a fundamental difference in these calipers that explains this.
Absolute measuring tools like the Mitutoyo Digimatic always know where they are, you can replace the battery and it will come back to life with the original measurement. The cheap chinese versions are usually incremental and zero is where you last pressed the zero button. If you remove the battery and replace it you lose the setting and will have to manually reset it. So the only way to retain the settings when you switch it back on is for it to never have been switched off in the first place. So they just dim the screen. This is easily confirmed if you attach a logic analyser to the clock and data pins of the data port. The device will continue to output the measurement data whether you think it is switched on or off. The display actually draws very little extra current so the only point in having an on/off switch is to mislead the user into thinking that he is saving the battery.
So to summarise, absolute calipers switch off when you think they do and so have good battery life, assuming that you switch them off when not in use, although some do that after a time out. Incremental calipers do NOT switch off when you expect and consequently eat batteries.
A fix for short battery life is to bring a couple of wires out from either the battery compartment or the data port and attach them to a triple or double "A" battery riding piggy back on the housing. Not very tidy but functional. If a trailing lead is not a hindrance then a remote battery or 1.5v wall wort ( 3v for some devices) is an option. For example a digital dial gauge on a comparator stand.

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## Toolmaker51

> ...Luckily they were very cheap so not much loss. So if your doing this mod, get the metal ones that measure in thousandths...Because of this change, I had to modify the way they attach in the pic as trying to drill though those steel calipers is impossible. I think they are made of titanium!?!



I'd say likelihood of Titanium is zero, zilch, nada, no way dude. They are only batch hardened Stainless; sort of non-magnetic, for the grind process and slide with low friction. Surface work hardens farther in reaction to machining with high speed cutters. Like 316, 321 SS etc, but worse.

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## tonyfoale

> I had to modify the way they attach in the pic as trying to drill though those steel calipers is impossible. I think they are made of titanium!?! 
> 
> Also it seems that the new ones all turn on with any movement which is annoying as you don't always need a DRO. I am going to be adding some micro slide switches to mine to shut them off when not needed.



They drill quite easily with carbide drill bits.

See my previous post about the futility of trying to turn them off. If you do add switches just remember that the cheap calipers will lose their settings, which may or may not be a problem for a DRO.

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## Saltfever

> . . . . two interesting *Duracell* class actions. One was over misleading statements surrounding superior battery life, and was settled in 2014 for $50 million.



Thanks Jon for the useful information. Sure wish I had know about the Druracell *problem* years ago. I imagine it must have taken a very large number of users and considerable damage over time to rise to the level of a class action suit. Unfortunately, I learned the hard way.

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## Kwick Aronson

> Electronics are wonderful but I am moving back to full mechanical. While I change all my batteries at the same time once a year I am phasing out electronic everything. There is much more peace of mind with a dormant mechanical instrument resting in a drawer. You cant say the same thing for anything electrical. I cant tell you how many devices have been ruined by Duracell batteries. They are complete crap. It took a while and the loss of some lovely tools but I finally caught on. I will never buy a Duracell anything. The company was purchased a few years ago and downgraded their manufacturing.



Duracell has been having problems with battery copies from China. Supposedly even Lowe's and HomeDepot have been stung by counterfeits. I have gotten a bunch on special at Staples that have leaked while still in the sealed packages with 2-3 years left on their date....stored in an air conditioned shop. Whether they are real or not, I do not know, but I now buy AmazonBasics batteries when possible.

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## mklotz

In ALL the expensive flashlights and other AA/AAA devices I've bought in the last few years I've always found Energizer batteries. Since switching over to the pink bunny I've not had a single leaker. They even guarantee leakproof operation...

No Leaks Guarantee | Energizer

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Paul Jones (Jun 8, 2018)

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## zarembak

I only have one that I use. Pretty good idea.

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## ncollar

> digital calipers that use the LR44/A76 battery will last a lot longer if you use an SR44/357/303 battery. they are all the same size, but the LR44 is an alkaline battery. the SR44 is a silver oxide based battery. silver oxide will last for years. alkaline - months.



Geezr
Thanks for the battery tip. I have several I thought were dead I changed the battery an they work a little while and quit. I buy some of the new ones and see. Again thanks.
Nelson

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DIYer (Jan 17, 2019),

Paul Jones (Jun 9, 2018)

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## Saltfever

> Duracell has been having problems with battery copies from China. Supposedly even Lowe's and HomeDepot have been stung by counterfeits. . . .



 Originally Posted by *Saltfever*_. . . . I can’t tell you how many devices have been ruined by Duracell batteries. They are complete crap. It took a while and the loss of some lovely tools but I finally caught on. I will never buy a Duracell anything. The company was purchased a few years ago and downgraded their manufacturing._

_I made my original post more than a year ago. You would think I would have learned by now. But as you can see Duracell has ruined another device. (not to mention_ _a $1200 navigation instrument a couple of years ago). I thought I had found everything with batteries but alas, I was wrong._ 
Notice the expiration date! 

Almost every *Duracell I have had has failed in service*. As soon as I realized the issue I removed them but I have so many seldom used devices (some tucked away into rarely visited cubbyholes) it has taken more than a year to remove Duracell completely from my life. Their warantee is useless. It only covers the cost of the battery regardless of how expensive the device is. Tell people you care about too. Remove them now or corrosion will be your next discovery.

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## Frank S

I friend brought an OBDII scanner over for me to use on a Ford Expedition I recently bought only to find that his batteries had began to leak I got it cleaned up to work but that got me to thinking about some of my more expensive laser levels and other devices that I hardly ever use So he and I started going through all of my storage areas digging out device after device. checking for batteries. Fortunately I had removed all of the batteries already so none were at risk

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Toolmaker51 (Jun 10, 2018)

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## tonyfoale

Just adding another voice to the "Duracells leak" thread. Cheap Chinese batteries stand up to life better.

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DIYer (Jan 17, 2019),

Toolmaker51 (Jun 10, 2018)

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## mklotz

Yes, definitely remove the batteries from any seldom-used tool. Also, if you store the batteries with the tool, ensure that they're in a plastic container of some sort; pharmacy pill bottles work well. Just because the batteries are out of the device doesn't mean they'll never leak. If they do they can make a mess of tool boxes.

Inevitably, you'll still need to clean up after a leak. A Dremel or Foredom fitted with this style wire brush...

https://www.amazon.com/Dremel-443-02...mel+wire+brush

can easily get into those deeply buried battery holders. This style brush...

https://www.amazon.com/Dremel-428-02...mel+wire+brush

works well in larger open spaces.

They're alkaline batteries so their deposits will loosen/dissolve in the presence of acidic solvents. I use vinegar on long cotton swabs like these...

https://www.amazon.com/SE-CS100-6-Co...bs+wood+sticks

and a miniature hot air gun on lowest setting to evaporate the last traces of moisture before installing new batteries.

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Toolmaker51 (Jun 10, 2018)

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## Toolmaker51

> Yes, definitely remove the batteries from any seldom-used tool. Also, if you store the batteries with the tool, ensure that they're in a plastic container of some sort; pharmacy pill bottles work well. Just because the batteries are out of the device doesn't mean they'll never leak. If they do they can make a mess of tool boxes.
> 
> Inevitably, you'll still need to clean up after a leak. They're alkaline batteries so their deposits will loosen/dissolve in the presence of acidic solvents. I use vinegar on long cotton swabs...and a miniature hot air gun on lowest setting to evaporate the last traces of moisture before installing new batteries.



I've had luck too, cleaning up battery compartments the same way, but finishing with 70 to 90% isopropyl alcohol, finding it dries so readily.

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## mklotz

Another argument for storing batteries in plastic containers...

It's almost impossible to accidentally short an AA-style battery. A 9 volt, on the other hand, needs nothing but brief contact with a screwdriver, nail, etc. or the side of the drawer in a metal tool box.

Many spare drill batteries have contacts so oriented that accidental shorting is a possibility. A little plastic goes a long way to preventing fires.

Oh, and one more warning...never carry 9 volt batteries in your change pocket. :-)

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## Frank S

"Oh, and one more warning...never carry 9 volt batteries in your change pocket. :-)
I'm not even going to ask how you learned that bit of information.
I'll never forget my very first experience with 9v batteries. my dad had given me a little 2 transistor radio when it came time to replace the battery I somehow managed to pinch the tiny wires of the contact clip between the radio and the battery A few minutes later the radio was getting warm in my pocket by the time I got the battery out it was hot enough to burn my fingers after getting the wires separated and taped the radio was fine but I didn't have any finger prints on my thumb and fore finger for a while. Lesson learned 7 year olds don't always know as much as they think they do.

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## mklotz

> "Oh, and one more warning...never carry 9 volt batteries in your change pocket. :-)
> I'm not even going to ask how you learned that bit of information.



I was tempted to add the DAMHIKT acronym but, in this case, I was smart enough to know not to do that from an early age.

That's not to say I haven't shorted a few batteries in my lifetime. My first car was a VW bug. The 6 volt battery was under the rear seat so one had to prop the seat up to top up the battery. While doing that I managed to drop a screwdriver, with perfect aim, directly across the electrodes. The resulting cascade of sparks ignited the strands of burlap-like stuff hanging from the bottom of the seat. So here I was, wedged into the back of the tiny car, head under seat and the flames getting dangerously close to my hair. I always had a rag for mopping up spills so I was able to beat out the (actually rather meager) flames. But from then on I used a wooden strip to pry the cell filling caps loose.

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## WOTSIRB

suds proof?

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## Mr.Pete

Thats cool , clean setup you got there . Now you can work in Sae and metric much easyer. great job

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bobs409 (Jan 12, 2019)

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